Head of Anglican church: We must discriminate against gays lest someone think we’re gay and bash us

In a horrific statement, the symbolic head of the worldwide Anglican church, the Archbishop of Canterbury, said that Anglicans must discriminate against gays, lest bigots in Africa think Anglicans themselves are gay, and then gay-bash them.

Yeah, he really did.

The archbishop says that some Anglicans were massacred in Africa because – get this – their murderers allegedly thought they were gay.  Thus, the archbishop says, it’s really complicated for the church to consider becoming more pro-gay, and especially pro-“gay marriage,” because, you know, what if people then try to kill even more Anglicans for doing the right thing?

Yes, because everyone knows that Jesus’ principal message for those confronted with dangerous exposure was to have you “deny” it, preferably three times.

That’s like getting beaten up because someone thinks you’re black or Jewish, and the lesson you take from that isn’t a lesson of tolerance, it isn’t a lesson that perhaps those communities are under attack more than you previously recognized, and perhaps you should double up your efforts to help them.  No, the lesson the head of the Anglican church (the Anglican Communion, they call themselves) is to distance yourself from the embattled minority, lest the bad guys attack again.

This is a church we’re talking about.  This is the head of the church.  Could Archbishop Justin Welby have said anything less Christ-like than this?

Justin Welby, the archbishop of Canterbury, head of the Anglican church (photo by Ellif)

Justin Welby, the archbishop of Canterbury, head of the Anglican church (photo by Ellif)

In an interview on LBC radio, Welby said that if the Anglican church accepted gay marriage it would be “absolutely catastrophic” for Christians in Africa.  Why?  Welby explained that he had recently visited south Sudan where he saw 369 bodies in a grave.  They were allegedly Christians who were killed because the locals feared that “if we leave a Christian community here we will all be made to become homosexual and so we will kill all the Christians.”

Welby, apparently swayed by the unassailable logic of bigots, suggested that the Sudanese Christians were killed because America is too pro-gay, or something.

He said this in response to a caller asking about the Anglicans embracing gay marriage: “The impact of that on Christians in countries far from here, like South Sudan, like Pakistan, Nigeria and other places would be absolutely catastrophic and we have to love them as much as the people who are here. I’ve stood by a graveside in Africa of a group of Christians who’d been attacked because of something that had happened far, far away in America. And they were attacked by other people because of that.”

Members of an English church were killed because some American states have finally legalized gay marriage?  Really?

Welby makes me think of the time back in high school when I asked my friend Keith Spirgel, who was one of the only Jewish people I’d ever met (west upper-middle-class suburbs of Chicago, late 1970s, not a lot of Jews), why people hated Jews so much. Keith was so normal, and fun, and smart, and kind – it just didn’t make sense to me, at age 14 or so, why people had a problem with Jews.  I still remember Keith’s answer: “I have no idea.”

Zoom forward four or so years to college. I was attending the University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana, and was riding in an elevator in my dorm, a dormitory that had a lot of Jewish residents. Some kids got on the elevator, they seemed a bit drunk, and one of them turned to me and called me a “kike.” They thought I was Jewish. (I’ve always had dark curly hair, and this was the early 80s, when big-hair was still in.) I was just supremely offended, and hurt. I remember saying “I’m not Jewish,” and then at the same time thinking, “it doesn’t really matter if I am Jewish.”  But I actually felt as if he had offended me as a Jew, for the first time I understood what it must feel like to be hated for who you are.

That run-in with a bigot, which still sticks with me today, didn’t make me less interested in working on civil rights issues.  It actually really ticked me off, and inspires me to this day.

For the leader of an entire faith to make this kind of comment is simply unbelievable.  Over the years, the Anglicans (aka Episcopalians, as we call them in America), have had more than a few run-ins with their own bigotry.  And I’ve always suspected that at its core the Anglican Communion was just as bitter, nasty and hateful as the Catholic church, the Mormons and all the rest.  And Justin Welby just confirmed it.


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Follow me on Twitter: @aravosis | @americablog | @americabloggay | Facebook | Google+ | LinkedIn. John Aravosis is the editor of AMERICAblog, which he founded in 2004. He has a joint law degree (JD) and masters in Foreign Service from Georgetown (1989); and worked in the US Senate, World Bank, Children's Defense Fund, and as a stringer for the Economist. Frequent TV pundit: O'Reilly Factor, Hardball, World News Tonight, Nightline & Reliable Sources. Bio, .

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  • MarinMichael

    I wonder what Desmond Tutu thinks of this?

  • Ninong

    Thanks for the clarification.

  • boomergran

    None of it was “undiscovered until the late 1990s.” It just wasn’t considered important enough to talk about. Homosexuality has been known and accepted throughout history (you can’t call it “homo” sexuality when speaking of animals – it’s same-sex attraction). Sodomy laws were unknown until some fundamentalist Christians got their panties in a wad. There’s some debate about the timing, but all agree that it wasn’t until the Common Era; prior to that, only class standing regulated sodomy, just like it regulated marriage. It’s only when fundamentalism rears its ugly head that people start trying to regulate other people’s sexual behavior and make it a national (or global) conversation.

  • boomergran

    Episcopal parishes have been breaking away since we revised the BCP and started ordaining women in the ’70s. Since then, and following the election and institution of Katherine Jefforts Schori as Presiding Bishop, some dioceses have also broken away and either joined another province or established their own branch of the Anglican Communion. There’s usually a lawsuit involved regarding the property, and the results have been mixed. The property is not owned by the local diocese, but by the individual parish; however, there is a legally enforceable trust between the parish and diocese that most often results in rulings in favor of Episcopal Church

  • Grandmère Mimi

    Justin Welby is not “the head of the worldwide Anglican church”, because there is no such institution, despite Welby’s use of the term. The Anglican Communion is a fellowship of autonomous Anglican churches throughout the world. The Archbishop of Canterbury is the head of the communion only in the sense that he is first among equals of the archbishops of the various churches.

    The Episcopal Church in the US is self-governing, and clergy may preside at same sex blessings and same sex marriages in states where such marriages are legal. The church ordains persons in same sex partnerships and marriages.

    In short, Justin Welby does NOT speak for the Episcopal Church in the US, so please don’t paint all churches in the Anglican Communion with the same broad brush.

  • Drew2U

    So they admit they’re turning a blind eye to the atrocities committed against the LGBT community. I’m just glad one of them was stupid enough to admit it publicly.

  • UncleBucky

    Good distinction! Thanks!

    However, I recommend that everyone leave their church for a period of time. Literally give the papers of resignation. No more money. And then wait a bit. And from that distance, if a congregation makes more sense, rejoin or join another. For me, I would have loved to be an Episcopalian, having been born and tortured (so to speak) as a Catholic. But now it’s over. I have given up, thanks to horrible clerics (some were nice, but enough were bad enough that I can’t get the experience past me) and the church ladies. There.

  • UncleBucky

    Certainly not Europe, although interpreted as weirdly as possible by Europeans and some people from Asia and the Levant.

    But the Bible comes from the Levant, from Turkey all the way over to Alexandria and a bit beyond. That is hardly “Africa” but I get your point! :)

  • UncleBucky

    That’s another Catholic bishop that needs to be fired along with the US Catholic Bishops, all of them.

    Fire ‘em all and then hire them back, one by one, he who imitates Jesus best (forget Christ, that was an invention of Paul).

    We could use an Archbishop Michael Pfleger in Chicago. Cardinal Pfleger, I might add.

  • UncleBucky

    We have to distinguish the Movement initiated by Jesus from the church founded by Paul.

  • UncleBucky

    Leave. Leave the RCC. Leave the Orthodox. Leave the Lutheran. Leave the Anglican. Leave the Presbyterian. Leave the Methodist. Leave the Baptist. Leave the Evangelical. Leave the Whatever….

    Leave the church. Don’t give any money for a year. For five years.

    And then after the spell has lifted, see if any of these groups still offer any benefits here on Earth (we’ll leave the afterlife to the discussion about how many angels on the head of a pin)…

    Naw. I don’t see much there in organizations. I DO see a lot with regard to individuals, churched, unchurched or simply never having been a member.

    Jesus is cool. Buddha is cool. Rumi is cool. Hillel is cool. But I gotta say, the Faiths leave a lot to be desired. If I didn’t mention you, don’t worry, I meant to.

  • Kit

    You are so full of mental illness that it is frightening.

  • Kit

    You don’t have a clue. Your stories are repugnant.

  • Kit

    You are a real pervert. Straights are 100 times more likely to have AIDS than gays in the world scope.

  • Kit

    It is not a fact and you continue to lie.

  • Kit

    Right. You just keep on lying and we’ll just keep on telling you what a liar you are. It’s an equitable arrangement.

  • Kit

    Sam we adopt your children by the hundred thousands. Not every hetero carries his own weight. Your sheer hatred shows just how undeveloped you are as a biped.

  • Kit

    Sam you do realize that science tells us that men who proclaim the loudest are usually attracted to other men and can’t deal.

  • Kit

    You are a scared little rabbit aren’t you. Your ignorance is common among haters. If straight people would just stop having babies there wouldn’t be any gays. You are the one creating this.

  • Kit

    Thank Goodness there are even more people who believe in equality. oooops you lose.

  • Kit

    Church attendance among the intelligent has dropped tremendously. I bow my knee to no one’s fantasy.

  • Mike

    And people wonder why people are leaving religion in droves.

  • Stuart McDonald

    Doing the morally right thing can often put one in danger, whereas doing the morally wrong thing can often can keep one safe, but often only temporarily. One should still do the morally right thing. So here we have the Anglican Church choosing to do what’s morally wrong as church policy. This is exactly like the approved churches in Nazi Germany who didn’t just stand by and watch the Holocaust unfold and do nothing to stop it, but actively participated in the Holocaust. Why are such disgusting moral & spiritual cowards chosen to head of the Anglican Church?

  • Margaret Pritchard Houston

    Marriage equality for all is right and moral.

    Protecting the lives of people who would be killed for something you do – and they had no part of – is also right and moral.

    The hardest choices are not between good and evil – they’re between two conflicting goods.

    I’m not saying Welby was right. I’m not saying he was wrong. I’m saying I don’t know, and the issue is more complicated than this article is admitting.

  • Ninong

    Except for the Coptic church in Egypt or the Ethiopian orthodox church, the rest were wiped out by Islam. Present-day Christianity in Africa was imposed by European colonial oppressors. You can predict the predominant Christian denomination of a country by knowing which European power was their previous occupier.

  • eunpobepunibepoibe

    Aravosis is pathetic. This isn’t about some drunken fool making fun of his hair, this is about HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE BEING MASSACRED! Welby is right, the lives of innocent people are on the line here, and not one of them is that coward John Aravosis.

  • [emoperboimbomp

    Church Fathers Mark the Evangelist, Origen, Terullian, and Augustine were all from Africa, as were popes Victor I, Miltiades, and Gelasius I. Where do you think the Bible comes from? It’s certainly not native to Europe.

  • Mobjack in Palm Springs

    Thank you, for offering up a bit of much-needed perspective on this story! As a gay American & as a baptized Episcopalian, I read this article and was horrified! After reading your comment and several others, I was able to take off my gay-colored glasses, set down my small American flag that I was waving, and hold off sending in my nasty letter of resignation from the church for its heinous stance on this issue. It took less than a very small moment to see that there is of course, another difficult side to this story that was not given its due within this article. It is truly a complicated situation and I do not envy the Archbishop in being forced to try and guide his flock in all corners of this troubled world. Perhaps this will facilitate real discussion and some soul searching of church members, especially those outside of the United States. As for Aravosis, I can now easily put him in the pile of journalists that write with a very pointed agenda, and who in the future I will remember to read with caution. And it’s too bad. This is truly an important issue that demands our critical study, not an easy lambasting such as that presented in this article.

  • Ninong

    The first sentence of your second paragraph correctly describes exactly the point the author of this article was trying to make. Justin Welby’s morals are dictated by the irrational prejudices of ignorant immoral people in Africa.

    “Making a stand” seems to me to be a strange way of describing what is right as opposed to what is wrong, what is moral as opposed to what is immoral. You seem to think that “making a stand” for equality for gay people is sort of favor that they are being granted.

    Marriage equality for all is either right and moral or it isn’t, but the answer to that question is not dependent on what others may think or the crimes they may commit.

  • Wes Hagen

    I think Sam really wants some man-on-man action, but he is projecting some serious issues of self-loathing. Anyone with me?

  • Wes Hagen

    They do adopt, and generally make better adoptive parents, on average, than straight parents.

  • Wes Hagen

    Why does the proliferation of gay culture scare you so? It seems that many outspoken advocates like you end up being closeted homosexuals. Do you think that a positive sexual experience with another man would change your opinion of homosexuality?

  • Wes Hagen

    So I’m curious if you think big government should step in and tell people who they can love… Is that government’s function?

  • Dorian

    They are not Anglicans they are following American evangelists that are promoting an anti gay agenda in Sudan,and the point of the archbishops words were about Anglicans being attacked by these people for being pro gay.

  • Dorian

    Except he is saying it’s the anti gay message coming from the evangelical community in the state’s that’s causing the anti gay agenda in Sudan. You should have done some more research before putting this quote mined article up that deliberately ignores how the Anglicans are dealing with sexuality issues. And interesting the final lines make sweeping generalizations that are in and of themselves judgemental and prejudiced. I am not pro Anglican just not looking to deliberately misunderstand stuff to attack them. But then that’s what this poster always does, and his social group whatever they are I cannot be bothered to find out More about him, so I will just do exactly what he did and assume the worst based on an out of context quote that ignores the conflict and on going discussion of this issue. Which is caused baby Americans. All of them, a single homogenous group of bigots. Because we are allowed to do that now apparently.

  • Margaret Pritchard Houston

    The writer of this article seems to be confusing risking your OWN life for the sake of justice and risking someone ELSE’S. While I absolutely agree that LGBT rights are an issue of urgent justice, and have campaigned for them within the church, and criticised Welby for his lack of support, I have to admit he has a point that the issue is complicated internationally by violence

    If you’re making a stand in the UK and someone ELSE is being killed for it in Africa, you’re not bravely defying death yourself – you’re standing behind a human shield and shouting “bring it on!” And that human shield is someone poorer and more vulnerable than you.

  • Barry

    Oops… did some truth slip out in a moment of unguarded passion? If church is your way… then go with that. If religion is your way, then you are agreeing to believe what you are told to believe. You are required to profess your beliefs every service. So then it is your duty to follow the old words no matter if they be right or wrong. This is a truth! You may see it differently but I assure you, this is what belonging to a religion is all about. Everything else (worship, worship together, good deeds, feeding the poor and even beginning a school in Africa) can be done without the name of a religion pasted on the top of your stationary.

    Now don’t bring up the church founded by Jesus bit because he said that when any two people come together in my name, this is my church. Jesus did all but set fire to the churches in those days (called temples).

    Religions have done much more harm over their histories than an eternity of good might forgive. Well that is water under the bridge, gone and done. Try to stay out of the way of human love and kindness, try not to screw up every move toward a more inclusive world. And PLEASE keep you Bible threats to yourselves. You look like idiots when you spout that stuff.

  • Ninong

    Or, in the words of an African Catholic cardinal, who was even considered a candidate for the papacy by the Irish oddsmakers, the U.N., the U.S. and the European Union shouldn’t try to impose their value system on Africa! Hahaha! That was in response to the U.N. saying that the African laws criminalizing homosexuality were a violation of human rights.

    I think it’s a little late for that bit of advice and it sounds absurd coming from a Catholic prelate. Where does he think his religion came from? It’s certainly not native to Africa.

  • Ninong

    That title of “Fidei defensor” was granted to Henry VIII on October 11, 1521, by Pope Leo X in recognition of Henry’s book “Assertio Septem Sacramentorum” (Defence of the Seven Sacraments), which defended the sacramental nature of marriage and the supremacy of the Pope. His first wife, Catherine of Aragon, was also a “Fidei defensatrix” in her own right.

    In fact, Henry’s book was written in opposition to the Protestant Reformation and the teachings of Martin Luther. Henry broke with the Vatican in 1530 because he wanted to divorce his wife and marry his mistress and because he wanted to plunder the riches of the Catholic monasteries in the U.K. Pope Paul III revoked Henry’s title of “Fidei defensor” and excommunicated him for that. Parliament later conferred the title “Defender of the Faith” on Henry and his successors but they were no longer defending the same faith. Except in the case of Queen Mary I (Bloody Mary) who was defending the Catholic faith and not the Anglican faith like her father.

    You would think that the British crown wouldn’t have wanted a title originally conferred by the Vatican once they renounced the supremacy of the Vatican over their church.

  • Ninong

    I believe their argument was that if the law allowed them to opt in and they refused to opt in, they would be in violation of the law. Ergo they wanted the law to explicitly forbid them from opting in so that the official state religion, headed by the monarch, wouldn’t be in violation of the law. They got their wish.

    They can’t possibly be in violation of the law because the law specifically spells out that nothing has changed as far as the official state religion is concerned. They must carry on as before because it’s the law!

  • Duck

    Of course as soon as the CoE got their wish with the “opt in” being forbidden to them they started to whine about NOT being able to opt in.

  • guest

    Get a hold of yourself, are you going to fore your own idea on other?

  • vickif

    I’m an atheist also and I totally agree with Ben.

  • vickif

    Thank you so much. That last comment by him sent my blood pressure rising.

  • vickif

    You really are insane.

  • vickif

    My oldest son and his husband and my uncle and his partner are not defective. You are. Lesbians procreate all the time. All they need is someone’s sperm which is easily done by a sperm bank or a friend.

  • vickif

    Same here.

  • RageMojo

    Yet another reason I despise the religious… Most people choose their form of spirituality the same way most people pick their sports teams, birth geography.

  • Richard Bushey

    I do not like this at all. This reminds me of the Christian man who told a homosexual, “God does not want you.” We need to remember that there was nobody more compassionate to sinners than Jesus Christ. You may like my article, “Do Christians Hate Gays?” http://thereforegodexists.com/2013/06/do-christians-hate-gays/

  • http://www.americablog.com/ Naja pallida

    I think you’d find that most of those non-practicers are more agnostic than “believers”. They simply identify with their community or their family, but belief isn’t really even a concern.

  • RageMojo

    It doesn’t matter if your non practicing or practicing if you believe in the same fairy tales and BS. Today many people are trying to change how Jesus is viewed to separate him from the church, but you cant. everything people know about Jesus was shaped by the roman church. And what does it say for a religions strength when there are over 40,000 versions. It is childish practicing or not. And atheism is not the only alternative. More people than you can possibly know are Agnostic, they just don’t know it.

  • http://www.americablog.com/ Naja pallida

    Lots of religions like to claim they’re the fastest growing religion, but studies have shown time and time again that becoming non-religious and non-practicing is the fastest growing religion. Not necessarily people becoming atheistic, but more and more people are avoiding taking part in organized churches. Sadly, even people who are entirely non-practicing will often lump themselves into a religion when polled, or will simply lie to a pollster to somehow seem like a better person. Largely because of the attitude of people like Robert there, telling everyone that they have no choice, Jesus is gonna getcha! Guilt and fear still holds people strong, even when they want nothing to do with religion.

  • Michael Rowe

    Whatever you do, don’t blame the savagery of African “Anglican” homophobes.

  • RageMojo

    LOL you better look again friend, religion has been on a steady decline since the 1950’s. And look at what you have done to god, bow? bended knee? Do you really think a loving omnipotent god requires childish human like worship and praise? He’s omnipotent, praise would be pointless. you believe in man made dogma, not gods word, stop wasting your life with false spirituality, because religions take you farther from spirituality, not closer.

  • MichelleMH

    Justin Welby has no authority of any kind over the Episcopal church. And your assertion that “we call Anglicans Episcopalians in the US” is completely incorrect. The Episcopal church has its roots in the Angican, yes. But, you see, one of the titles of the Crown of England is “defender of the faith.” Thus, to be an Anglican, you have to accept the authority of the British Crown. After the Revolutionary War, that was a BIT of a problem, for Anglicans in the US. So, the Episcopal Church was formed, and we have a completely different “head of the church” HER name is Kathering Jefferts Schori. The Episcopal church was the first “mainstream” church in the US to consecrate an openly gay bishop. One of the most recent pastors of the Cathedral right here in my home town of St. Louis was an openly gay woman. The Episcopal Church decided at its convention in 2013 to finalize the ceremony for the consecration of same sex unions. So, bash away at Justin Welby, if you wish. But leave the Episcopalians out of it.

  • Moderator3

    Don’t worry about Sam. Moderator4 took care of him.

  • Chuck

    Sam, Perhaps it is your thinking that is defective. Get a grip!

  • Chuck

    Sam, And would your so-called natural marriages include the polygamous ones of which we read in the Bible. And which are all over Africa. Where is Mr. Welbly on this one? Just how many wives did King Solomon have, let alone David. And I won’t even count the concubines. Do tell?

  • AnthonyLook

    Episcopals across the nation should make it be know that such rhetoric is contrary to anything remotely Christian. He should be shamed to apologize.

  • Daniel English

    What you consider to be “normal” is due to a majority rule of acceptance. It was only 150 years ago that “slavery” was considered a norm in society among many Western nations. It was less than 100 that same race marriages alone were considered the norm. What is normal to the majority doesn’t always accentuate the natural truth. And that is what people like you and your comrades who dislike gay marriage and gays can’t seem to fathom.

  • Rusty

    Actually more and more people are turning to Atheism. Not alot of people are going to believe in the Harry Potter book that is the bible in another 100 years. And like Rage said, I’ll do all I can to help that.

  • David Crass

    Thank you.

  • Robert

    Look around you, dear Rage. Jesus is hardly going away. In truth (and I know you will rage at that word), you will some day bow your knee to him, whether you like it or not. Then we’ll see who is going the way of Odin and Zeus.

  • RageMojo

    I will rightly dismiss all religions and especially those that use hate and fear. The time to live side by a side in peace is over. When your kind teaches children the world is only 6,000 years old and all animals in the world fit on one boat in the middle east, then I will not be idle or silent. I will eradicate that as much as I would someone teaching 2+2=6. religion takes you farther from true spirituality. People who only live good because of a deity are not good people. The fact full grown adults don’t understand that is beyond sad. The time of childish religions and false spirituality is over, you had your time and you blew it. Jesus will be going the way of Odin and Zeus and I will do all I can to help that.

  • Mary Thorpe

    BTW, many of us clergy are extremely uncomfortable being agents of the state vis-a-vis marriage, and would greatly prefer simply blessing those who are in committed, faithful, monogamous relationships, whether gay or straight.

  • Mary Thorpe

    Actually, RageMojo, the Anglican church has been present in Africa, and in other parts of the world, for a couple of centuries, doing much more than building a school or two. They’ve done much good. Have they also done things for which they should be ashamed? Yes. And I’d distinguish between the notion of a pyramid scheme and the desire to share something that we value – an understanding of relationship with the creator that is one of love and grace – while sometimes imperfectly shared, is not necessarily a bad thing. Again, I’m not defending the bad acts, but please don’t dismiss the good with the bad.

  • Mary Thorpe

    Thanks, Ben. I am not alone. There are many of us friends and advocates out there, and many of us are clergy. For that matter, many of my clergy colleagues are LGBTQ, respected by their denominations, loved by their congregations, and held in high esteem by their colleagues.

  • James Smith

    you are one twisted child. Homosexuality has been perpetrated since the ancient civilizations. The Greeks had sex with the same and opposite gender many times. Clearly though, that was just propaganda set up by the Gays. They were able to utilize a technique lost to us “Normies” to create a perfect replica of Greek art, except with two guys instead of a guy and a girl.

  • JamieHaman

    Still believe in God, But!!! this is exactly why I don’t follow any organized religion. Well, that and TV cameras in a mega church, instead of helping the homeless and poor.
    You exactly right when you call him despicable, I would add coward to it.

  • Sameboat1

    How so? Many gay men marry and have children before finally admitting to themselves and their wives that they are gay. The mechanics of sex between male and female are simple. Most gay guys have tried it at one time or other, as have many women. Choice? The only choice is whether to hide it or be yourself. Be “normal”, not by your definition. Can you think of the moment when you “chose” to be straight? No, I suspect it has just always been that way. It is the same with us; we just have had to hide it to survive, where you have not.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcrEqIpi6sg Moderator4

    Sam Gompers, you are banned. Goodbye.

  • AlanH

    You started by saying Welby is the “Symbolic” head of the Anglican Communion and then lapsed into speaking of him as if he were the head of a single church. The Anglican Communion is a worldwide collection of independent churches that owe no practical or canonical allegiance to the Archbishop of Canterbury. To think that he speaks for Christians or even for Anglicans as a whole is a big mistake. I belong to an Anglican Church, (the Episcopal Church,) but he does not speak for me or my Church.

  • Sue Roediger

    your interpretation of the bible is your own………….you don’t get to force it on the rest of us……………….

  • Sue Roediger

    well there is this —
    In ancient Jewish literature, such as the Ethics of the Fathers and the Talmud, there are many references to Sodom. The phrase “middat Sdom” was used. It may be translated as “the way the people of Sodom thought”. It meant a lack of charity and hospitality towards others; ignoring the needs of the poor, etc. In the Middle East, a person’s survival could depend upon the charity of strangers. To help strangers was a solemn religious duty of paramount importance. See Leviticus 19:33-34 and Matthew 25:35, 38 and 43.
    Isaiah 1; The entire first chapter is an utter condemnation of Judah. They are repeatedly compared with Sodom and Gomorrah in their evildoing and depravity. Throughout the chapter, the Prophet lists many sins of the people: rebelling against God, lacking in knowledge, deserting the Lord, idolatry, engaging in meaningless religious ritual, being unjust and oppressive to others, being insensitive to the needs of widows and orphans, committing murder, accepting bribes, etc. There is no reference to homosexuality or to any other sexual activities at all.

  • Sam Gompers

    But you’re wrong. They do have an impact on me and everyone. Look at what they did to Eich. Look at how they target our children with their homosexual normalization propaganda. They don’t want to live and let live. They demand everyone pretend their normal just like us. They won’t rest until everyone pretends the homosexual culture is the hetero-normative fairy tale we see on Modern Family, and not the disease ridden freakshow on Folsom St. As if that pretending will somehow fill that emotional void in their beings.

    It’s like some big Freudian nightmare. They people they most militantly assault are the very people they so desperately seek acceptance from, their WASP mommies and daddies.

    They won’t live us alone.

  • Sam Gompers

    You’re making it sound like it’s a choice.

  • Guest

    Yes, because of course, straight people don’t get AIDS.

    Seriously, I just kinda feel sad for you. This terrible disdain you have for a group who, for the most part, has no real impact on you whatsoever, which causes you to sit here and rail endlessly to an audience that honestly doesn’t give a shit about your prerogative, since it’s dying out much faster than you wish gays would.

    Eh, if raging about ‘TEH HOMOSEXHULS’ on the internet to a bunch of strangers who are largely ignoring you because your ideology is one of discrimination and disdain strokes off your ego and makes you feel good about yourself, more power to you. But it’s not how I’d opt to spend my time.

  • Sam Gompers

    98 times out of 100 nature works. But, even the most perfect systems can produce defects. I think a 2% failure rate isn’t that bad.

  • Sam Gompers

    At least we’re doing something positive for society other than being a public health burden.

  • Sam Gompers

    Shane, history is history. Just as gay activists had GRIDs renamed to AIDs as to not stigmatize gays. Gay activists had gay reclassified. But no matter if gay is classified in the DSM or not, it’s still abnormal just as GRIDs is still a gay disease.

  • Sam Gompers

    Well clearly I was talking about the heterosexual union, the natural one. Normal marriage is just a social recognition of the fundamental anthropological truth of the importance of the natural union.

    Natural marriage is the institution that keeps normal families together with both the husband with the wife, thereby providing the optimal environment for childrearing. Since procreation is a biological imperative, and as collections of biological forms societies thus procreate through child-rearing it is critical for the survival of society to promote and protect the biologically intact natural family.

    The natural marriage is the institution that does this. The entire world recognized this fact in the UN Declaration of Human rights Article 16 Clause 3.

  • Daniel English

    So I guess people without or can’t have children aren’t legally married. Since all marriage is only for procreative purposes. You are an idiot! Learn a bit about the history of marriage historically throughout civilization. Very few marriages were about love or producing children. They were about exchanging property.

  • RageMojo

    And what are they doing in Africa anyways? the hypocrisy and lies are enough. They build a school somewhere in Africa to feel good about themselves and then set up a permanent Christian outreach/recruiting station. The fact Christianity has this built in need to spread like a pyramid scheme is just more proof god has nothing o do with it.

  • Ninong

    Even when they do go to the trouble of doing the procreating themselves, nine times out of ten they get it wrong and the kid turns out to be straight. All that trouble for nothing. Hahahaha!

    Oh, well, back to the recruiting. Hahahahaha!

  • Shane Clune

    What twisted world do you live in? You think gays are icky, and this highly educated and nuanced conclusion is so brilliantly thought out that the only way anyone could come to a different conclusion is by brainwashing or political pressure. Did I get that right?

  • Ninong

    Recruits? Are you serious? Hahahaha!

  • Sameboat1

    hmm. In gay circles, you’re not “normies”. You’re “breeders”.

  • Sameboat1

    Boy! I bet you’re really glad we can’t (or more accurately, usually don’t) procreate. We would undoubtedly pop out more little homoseckshuls, huh?

  • Sam Gompers

    Obviously not. They’re a defective version of humans. But clearly, my comment was a tongue-in-cheek play on Sameboat1’s comment about evolution. Since clearly something that can’t procreate can’t evolve.

    Unless that something recruits. Homosexuals don’t recruit the children of Normies do they?

  • Ninong

    So you believe homosexuals are a separate species? Is that what you’re saying?

  • Sam Gompers

    Well we know homosexuals can’t evolve since they can’t procreate. Procreation is a critical aspect to evolution.

  • Sam Gompers

    Yes, it’s a fact that homosexual activists pressured the APA into reclassifying homosexuality.

    Next up for reclassification is pedophilia. By the same pressure groups, no less.

  • Sameboat1

    Haw! Haw! Haw! I just have to laugh every time some doofus drags out that old canard about “homosexual activists” changing science. Like what? “Creationism”? That better?

  • Sameboat1

    Centuries of religious oppression with strict obedience to the church. Also called the “Dark Ages”. Then came the “Enlightenment”, which actually helped to found the U.S. Perhaps some people are becoming more enlightened, or “evolved”. Oh, sorry, that doesn’t happen, right?

  • Sam Gompers

    It’s funny how you’re trying to insult me by smearing me as a homosexual. What is it about homosexuals that you find so worthy of hurling as an insult?

    I mean, I know why I do. The diseases, suicides, mental health issues, and ingesting of feces during intercourse. But why do you?

  • Mack Stevens

    YOU know…sounds like you’ve a :bone” to pick. Or suckle.

  • Mack Stevens

    You’d know, as you gomp onto some big dude’s root.

  • Sam Gompers

    You’re misreading the research. Even the current homo-ganda doesn’t claim there are animals with a gay sexual orientation, only animals that engage in homosexual behavior.

    You know, like in prison.

  • Bill Price

    Sorry but Erasmus was long dead by then, and King James had nothing to with it other than set up the committee – I’m with you, but we need to get our facts rights. Bad history just gives our critics ammunition.

  • Sam Gompers

    Maybe you don’t remember how the APA came to it’s conclusions by caving to pressure from homosexual activists and not from scientific rigor?

  • Sam Gompers

    So the basic premise that we have to believe is that for the centuries of natural science the scientists were too bigoted to report their observations and all that magically changed in the late 1990s.

    The scientists before the 90s were fearful bigots, the scientists after the 90s are enlightened academics merely reporting the facts.

  • Ben Richardson

    I am an atheist, but there needs to be more people like you in the world :)

  • Ben Richardson

    All animals. Use your brain and use the thing that you are using to type with to do some research.

  • Ben Richardson

    “To turn the approach on its head: No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue.”

    Petter Bockman regrets that there is too little research about homosexuality among animals.

    “The theme has long been taboo. The problem is that researchers have not seen for themselves that the phenomenon exists or they have been confused when observing homosexual behaviour or that they are fearful of being ridiculed by their colleagues. Many therefore overlook the abundance of material that is found. Many researchers have described homosexuality as something altogether different from sex. They must realise that animals can have sex with who they will, when they will and without consideration to a researcher’s ethical principles.”

    One example of overlooking behaviour noted by Petter Bockman is a description of mating among giraffes, when nine out of ten pairings occur between males.

    “Every male that sniffed a female was reported as sex, while anal intercourse with orgasm between males was only “revolving around” dominance, competition or greetings.

    Masturbation is common in the animal kingdom.

    “Masturbation is the simplest method of self pleasure. We have a Darwinist mentality that all animals only have sex to procreate. But there are plenty of animals who will masturbate when they have nothing better to do. Masturbation has been observed among primates, deer, killer whales and penguins, and we’re talking about both males and females. They rub themselves against stones and roots. Orangutans are especially inventive. They make dildos of wood and bark,” says Petter Boeckman of the Norwegian Natural History Museum.

  • Michael

    Do read Aramaic or Koine Greek? I read Koine Greek and I can assure you Paul didn’t say about homosexuality what you think he said. Unfortunately most people are forced to read the New Testament in translation and those translations are often biased. I strongly suggest you do some study before attempting to expound on theology. Jesus never said he hated homosexuality. Jesus never mentions homosexuality at all. He does mention hypocrisy an awful lot. Ditto judging others. Speaking as a Christian, none of us are without sin, The greatest commandment is “Love one another.” Not go around spouting angry diatribes condemning others when you yourself are, as we all are, a sinner.

    Matthew 25: 31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

    41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [a]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    Jesus didn’t attach an exception saying: unless, of course, the least of these were gay. Please see a priest, a pastor, a psychologist…someone…to help you with the hate you clearly hold in your heart. (Not to mention help you with your unhealthy obsession with sexuality.) Unless you let the hate go, you will never truly find Christ.

  • Ninong

    I believe the American Psychiatric Association decided in 1973 that homosexuality was not a disorder. The American Psychological Association reached the same conclusion in 1975. Both of them reached that conclusion based on years of prior research. Since the 1970s, the consensus of the behavioral and social sciences and the health and mental health professions globally is that homosexuality is a normal variation of human sexual orientation.

    Maybe you’re not old enough to remember anything before the late 1990’s?

  • Sam Gompers

    Well of course not, I’m a disease-free Normie.

  • Michael

    Depends on what you define as a difference I guess. Rites or reality. Personally, as an American Episcopalian, I see a pretty darn big difference between the Church of England and the Episcopal Church given the ECUSA is inclusive and the C of E isn’t, but your mileage may vary.

  • Ninong

    Is that based on your personal experience?

  • Butch1

    Idiot! He’s worse than the last one; at least he had the sense to keep his mouth shut. One leads by example and not by what others think of him. He doesn’t deserve to be a leader. Are the African bigots leading the Anglican church or is this spineless coward?

  • Sam Gompers

    The natural union is procreative and is the organizing principle of virtually all life forms.

    Where is that in the Bible?

  • Sam Gompers

    How many homosexual animals that self-identify as homosexuals are there?

    Homosexuality in nature is like homosexuality in prison.

  • Sam Gompers

    I don’t care what the Bible says, I’m not religious. But I do find it quite suspect how all this homo-history magically popped into existence in the past decade or so. Just like all the homo-science of it being natural and homosexual animals being all over went mysteriously undiscovered for centuries until the late 1990s.

  • https://www.facebook.com/dirk.bastings.7 Dirk Bastings

    Your mythology should not dictate my civil rights.

  • https://www.facebook.com/dirk.bastings.7 Dirk Bastings

    I think he’s entirely too obsessed with homosexuals to be straight.

  • https://www.facebook.com/dirk.bastings.7 Dirk Bastings

    And 50 years ago most Americans thought same race marriages were a cornerstone of Biblical marriage.

  • Dirk Bastings

    Oh PLEASE. If that flamer is straight I’m the queen of Egypt.

    Straight men don’t get their panties in a bunch over things like this, only closet cases.

  • a real person

    Hi. The New Testament – without any doubt at all – isn’t Jesus’ word. It’s the word of (some) of his apostles, with a very very great number of changes made in the last 1800 years.
    So. Which Bible are you using? The Old Testament (literally pre-Jesus and all about the Wrath of God) or the New (written by the apostles and all about the Grace of God)?

  • Lynx

    That’s the part they don’t get yet, Max. They ~act~ like they believe, because they think it saves them, when the opposite is true, which is why they keep “getting it” all wrong, and doing the same wrong damn things.

  • Wes Hagen

    Here’s something else to chew on. The King James Bible was revised and rewritten under the watchful eye of two gay men: Erasmus and King (Queen) James. Whoops! Guess it’s just homo-erotic advocacy, eh?

  • CoolHandLNC

    No, the ECUSA split from C of E after the revolution. The better caveat is that while the Anglican Communion may look like a hierarchy, it really isn’t. Bishops have a great deal of autonomy, as do the provinces. The Archbishop of Canterbury has very little authority. In the US we have a Presiding Bishop, but presiding is all she really does. Even many Episcopalians don’t understand the governance process.

  • Wes Hagen

    Humans are mammals, naturally occuring on the planet earth and form long-term bonds regardless of gender. Gay behavior is natural in scores of species. Therefore gay marriage is natural. Not like gays are trying to get SPECIAL rights…you know, like Churches being tax-exempt..

    I’m not gay, but I do believe who we love and commit to is no business of a government. Unless you are suggesting government be bigger, more intrusive and more powerful, which I guess you are.. :-)

  • Sam Gompers

    Typical hyperbolic gay horse manure. Many people believe the natural marriage is the foundation of society. I’m sorry if that hurts your feelings, but it is.

  • Jerry Callender

    Let us not forget stoning foul mouthed brats to death, taking slaves from the neighboring town and slaughtering any and all that do not share the “belief”, other than the virgins, of course, who are fair game for any dude that wants to claim them. We generally refer to that as rape in polite society.

  • Jerry Callender

    WOW – Accept the injustice by discriminating against your own people instead of fighting the injustice.
    How perverted can any one individual be?
    I would also add that HRH Elizabeth II, Queen of the Commonwealth, is the Head of the Anglican church

  • Robert Lundquist

    No, it’s a distinction without a difference…

  • Leonardo Ricardo

    ++Justin is a lightweight, a snickering joyriding twit…throw the bum out (of Lambeth Palace)!

  • Ninong

    The Church of England is a little slow to enter the 21st century. As far as I know, they still haven’t ordained a female bishop yet, have they? The new law allowing same-sex marriages in England and Wales explicitly bars the Church of England from performing such marriages. In fact, it doesn’t require any religious denominations to perform gay marriages but those that wish to do so are allowed to “opt in,” except for the Church of England. They’re not allowed to opt in.

    That was to satisfy the objections of the Church of England that their authority as the official state religion might be undermined if the government legalized same-sex marriage, something they said they would never accept.

  • Ninong

    Aren’t they all part of the Anglican Communion?

  • Ninong

    The hierarchy of the Anglican Church in Africa, as well as that of the Catholic Church in Africa, can be described as homophobic, as well as anti-equal rights for women. Welby spent several years in Nigeria working for the French oil company Elf Aquitaine. According to his biography, he worked 11 years in the oil industry before deciding to study for the Anglican priesthood.

    He has an affinity for Africa and is more than tolerant of their cultural homophobia. That’s not to say that he personally is homophobic but that he is perfectly willing to tolerate their attitudes toward homosexuality. His excuse for opposing gay marriage is that it would offend Africans, who might then decide to murder all Christians for the sin of tolerating homosexuality, even the ones who were innocent of this offense.

  • Kevin O’connor

    One caveat,the American Episcopal church is not the same as the Anglican(British) rather we descend from the Scottish Episcopal rite…There is a difference!

  • Susan Russell

    Sigh. Sad proof that by throwing LGBT people under the bus, Justin Welby is helping convince another boatload of people who think they know enough about being a Christian not to want to be one that they’re right. And as an Episcopal priest I have to say: who could blame them? I’ve already written on this recent utter leadership fail by the ABofC over at the Huffington Post — http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-susan-russell/archbishop-of-canterbury-_b_5093293.html — but in a nutshell, this critique [a] reminds me that the tea in the Boston Harbor was the smartest thing we ever did [b] Canterbury only has the authority we give it and [c] speaking out strongly and clearly about the commitment of the Episcopal Church to the full inclusion of ALL the baptized in ALL the sacraments is a critical antidote to tell the good news of a church that strives to respect the dignity of EVERY human being — and not be blackmailed into bigotry against some human beings.

  • markt9002

    You’re right, Jesus is real. He just got done mowing my lawn.

  • Sean

    Dear Guest – thanks for sharing! Under our secular-humanist
    constitution everyone is free to believe in any God or holy book that they
    please. We are also free to reject any God or holy book if we see no evidence
    that they are actually true. You quote a lot of Bible stories, yet they are
    nothing, excuse the phrase, but a bunch of fairy tales. But fear not, if living
    in a free society is a horrible thing for you, there is a way! There’s a
    country that IS run by the church, and even better, homosexuality is illegal
    there. It’s Saudi Arabia. And because they are serious about Godly virtue, they
    forbid the open practice Christianity. This is wise, for they understand that
    religious freedom will lead to a godless society.

  • Mary Thorpe

    As an Episcopal priest, I was as horrified at Abp Welby’s comments, as were many in our denomination. At our church, ALL are welcome, and that welcome is fully extended to our LGBTQ brothers and sisters as well. We bless same-sex unions as well as hetero unions. We baptize LGBTQ folks as well as straight ones. We confirm all. No restrictions. None, because Jesus didn’t pick and choose who he loved. As a matter of fact, those whom he spent the most time with were those who suffered the oppression, violence, and victimization of outcasts in a world that was all about following the rules to fit in. So much so,in fact, that he was killed for it. Our denomination is imperfect – all human institutions are – but I do think we are working toward a more united voice in support of all, because we are all made in the image of God.

  • just an elbow

    How much longer will your “god” tolerate you?

    Jackass.

  • olandp

    This is the definition of homophobia. Hate on the gays so that no one will think you are one, but you know what… YA ARE BLANCHE, YA ARE A FAG!

  • battlepriest

    “The Queen WHO”.

  • battlepriest

    You are not “intellectually competent”. You are moronic.

  • battlepriest

    Posts like this are why I do not believe in god. It is obvious that the poster is mentally ill.

  • http://blogvader.tumblr.com/ Blogvader

    True, plus, the word of God also forbids usury (the basis of the US Economy) and fully supports slavery, which we decided long ago that we weren’t going to do despite the Bible.

    The Bible has a lot of stupid crap in it, among it verses supposedly forbidding gay sex.

  • kingstonbears

    Let’s make sure you’re talking about the same Jesus that I “know”. He adored his mother, didn’t understand his father, best friend was a hooker, wandered around the desert with a group of men of who he said “and John, you are my favorite”. Long hair, sandals, I think we get the picture. Definitely GAY. Besides, He’s the only man who can wear white after Labour Day.

  • Paul (A.)

    If you were intellectually competent you might bother learning the correct uses of apostrophes in English.

  • Max_1

    “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
    ― Mahatma Gandh

  • Max_1

    John,
    I too have found that the ‘institutions’ and ‘movements’ are covers for…
    … As Jesus put it, “dens of inequities”.

    I rest assured in that Jesus’ condemnation also came with damnation…
    … The only one he makes in the Buy-bull.

  • Max_1

    What so ever you do to the least of your brethren, so TOO YOU have done unto me [Jesus Christ].

  • Max_1

    Do unto others as YOU would have done, TO you.”

  • Max_1

    Who did Christ discriminate against?
    … Mr. Welby needs to be reminded of Matt 23.

  • neroden

    Remember, Guest, God hates eating shellfish — it is an abomination. God has also ordered you to abandon your family and friends and give away all your money. Done that yet?

    Until you live up to the actual orders in the Bible, you are merely a bigot spouting lies, and you have no claim to religiosity.

  • cole3244

    if you have to get your advice and opinion out of the good book you are intellectually lacking to say the least.

  • Joshua

    Sir, I can assure you I am not intellectually incompetent or promoting religious hatred or bigotry, I am just conveying to you and other subscribers to this blog, what the Word of God say’s. The Word is true, Jesus is real. Their are very intellige

  • cole3244

    generally no one would call religious leaders brave or progressive there are exceptions of course but this coward is more the norm than an aberration.

  • cole3244

    you are another example of a bigot using religion to justify hate and discrimination on your part, in a world of intelligent thinking people you are practicing deviant behavior since bigotry and hate cloaked in religious doctrine is repugnant however you look at it.

    i don’t believe in book burning but if there is a book that deserves to be burned it is your good book that allows you and other neanderthals to spread the word of hate you glean out of reading the supposed word of god. if the bible didn’t exist you and other haters would find something else to justify your anti social behavior.

  • Joshua

    Very simple this is not even a debate…This isn’t about religion bashing Homosexuals, this is about God hating Homosexuals. If you don’t agree, please feel free to comment. I will show you numerous verse’s from the Word of God. That say’s just that. Then you may say to me well Jesus never said anything about Homosexuality. Actually that tired defense by the Homosexual progressive movement, is one of a thousand reasons God will bring judgement upon this Earth. But, in actuality if you believe in God, you must too believe His Word, not only believe but stand for it and try your best by the help of the Holy Spirit to live by it and considering Jesus is the Word of God become flesh, then that answers that debate, because the Apostle John did not say, the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us, except He had a tattoo that said Gay is Kosher. No the Word doesn’t say that, the Word is pretty darn clear on God’s stance on Homosexual deviant behavior and considering Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, He did not need preach about homosexuality, because the Word of God, given to Moses and the Prophets before made it very clear. Refer Sodom, Angel’s came to Lot and those perverts wanted to rape the Angels, so God fixed them in short order. Every law that this Nation or any other Nation on the face of the Earth passes and condones openly what God openly condemns, God considers as blatant defiance of His Sovereignty. Especially when the officials and activist’s whom take part in the process, are aware of God’s Word, God takes offense and see’s all things. Take a look at history and notice every society who’s public policy was indifferent or open to homosexuality. Or do you think God does not see the sexual innuendo served to the children through Disney movies or the constant bombardment of sexuality corrupting the children’s, but the parents don’t say anything or speak up no, because its a babysitter real cheap, but the Homosexual’s will sure go in mass and march until their feet fall off, to get a Supreme Court ruling condemning this Nation in the eye’s of God. How much longer do you think God will tolerate it??? That’s my question, do you think God is sleeping?

  • abraham silverstein

    If you think you are being discriminated against leave….walk with your feet. They are not going to have gay weddings if people get slaughtered. Why would they?

  • abraham silverstein

    You think a pit with 336 bodies is ok ?

  • abraham silverstein

    Why would the church marry gays if people get murdered for the church doing it? The easiest thing that you could do is switch churches because it does not make sense to put other Anglicans at risk.

  • BillFromDover

    BFD 4:5 And verily I say unto thou, bash against those as a preventative strike against thems that could possible bash against ye lest… whatever the fuck happens in San Fran and Lesbos?

  • F Young

    Justin, let me restate that:

    “We must discriminate against gays lest genocidal mass murderers think we take Christ seriously.”

    I think that’s clearer, don’t you?

  • bkmn

    Pedophile protectors/enablers is ok, right, but not gay.

  • ericxdc

    Mr. Welby, it’s hard being moral, isn’t it?

  • 4th Turning

    Irony, if I’m not mistaken.

  • Bill_Perdue

    Bigots come in two flavors. Active scum like Lively, Pat Robertson, Obama BBFs Rick Warren and Donnie McClurkin, anglican catholics, islamists and roman catholics. And bigots who enable the other bigots but worry about it. Welby is in that category. They’re all lined up against us.

    Welby’s comments amount to a revival of the scourge of English colonialism and religious bigotry. He and his cult should be treated with he contempt they deserve. Our goal should be instead to help out our communities in Africa by pressuring the US government to grant asylum and to cut all military and police aid, as always guided by them because they’re the ones who’ll face the consequences.

    We have a lot of support from people like Tutu, from trade unions, students and teachers groups world wide and from others including some less bigoted cults and, as always, we have the the courageous example of our brothers and sisters who stand up and fight back even in places like Uganda.

  • Badgerite

    I would think that the natural reaction to having members of their church hurt by people because said people believed them to be gay would be to condemn the people who hurt their church members.

  • 4th Turning

    Today in history as they say.

    But for the Roman Catholic church there is more at stake than the future of a single cleric. Father Wenceslas is just one member of the clergy at the heart of a struggle over where to pin moral responsibility for the genocide.
    The Vatican paints the church as a victim not only of the mass killings – because priests and nuns were among the those slaughtered – but of persecution by Rwanda’s present government, which has jailed members of the clergy and accused the church leadership of having blood on its hands.

    Two hundred or more priests and nuns, Tutsi and Hutu, were murdered during the genocide. Some died courageously attempting to save lives or refusing to abandon their parishioners. But there were other priests who murdered.

    Some collaborated with the militias to massacre their own congregations; others pulled the trigger themselves. Priests ordered the bulldozers in to crush a church full of people to death, and organised the slaughter of disabled Tutsi children.

    The Vatican has sought to identify the church with the heroic priests. But ask Rwandans today which side the Catholic church as an institution was on during the genocide and many say it was allied with the killers.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/07/rwanda-genocide-20-years-priests-catholic-church

  • DonewithDems

    Those were my thoughts exactly!

  • 4th Turning

    What would it have mattered-he was Irish.

  • 4th Turning
  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    I think what they’re discovering, finally, is that sexual orientation really is a Kinsey-style spectrum, and lots of 1s and 2s (and fully Bi 3s) are nowadays willing to admit to some or significant same-sex attraction. The stigma isn’t what it was, even 10 years ago.

  • 4th Turning

    But he cleans up nice for all those royal processions we’re so fond of…

  • Indigo

    Canterbury is at the low end of it’s swinging pendulum but yeah . . . what would Oscar Wilde say?

  • LanceThruster

    Overcompensation much?

  • http://www.americablog.com/ Naja pallida

    He was actually quite a bit more open minded, he was just a cowardly appeaser and preferred to cater to the bigots than risk creating yet another schism in his church. Plus, the Anglican church is more “rule by committee” than, say, the Catholic church. So if you have a 10 person committee and 9 of them are haters, of course they’ll never agree with the one guy who might be trying to point out that their hate is hurting their cause. The Anglican faith has seen a steady decline in their flock for many years, largely due to their unwillingness to step into the current century.

  • http://heimaey.us/ heimaey

    It’s so frustrating that these religions even still exist today. Honestly, how do these people believe all this made up shit and then arbitrarily follow parts of the made up story that contradict the other parts and then get mad at others for not believing in the the particular make-believe that they believe in while simultaneously using it to veil bigotry and hatred.

  • Ninong

    That’s an interesting survey. Just more proof that it all depends on who’s asking the questions and how they’re asked. As well as the target group being polled.

  • Ninong

    Yes, and that 4% number is based on the percentage of the population willing to self-identify as gay to a complete stranger conducting the poll. Younger gays are more likely to give an honest answer than those of the older generations.

    I think it’s informative to realize that in the larger American cities the percentage willing to self-identify as gay is well above 10%. In San Francisco, 15.4% of the adult population identify as gay. In Seattle and Atlanta the number is around 13%. In major cities worldwide where there is a tolerant attitude towards gays, the percentage is well above 10%. The percentage of the population in Rio that identifies as gay is similar to San Francisco’s.

    Personally, I think the true LGBT percentage of the population in the U.S. is closer to 7% than 4%. It’s just that in some parts of the country it’s just not socially acceptable to admit to being gay. If a similar poll had been conducted in the 1940’s, I doubt the percentage would even reach 2%.

  • Stev84

    And is it who taught them to hate gay people in the first place? Christian missionaries of course.

  • Michael David Barber Moghul

    Please keep up with the math and science of sexuality; A full 19% of Americans DO NOT IDENTIFY as heterosexual :) http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/10/09/study-polls-may-underestimate-anti-gay-sentiment-and-size-of-gay-lesbian-population/ So they are discriminating against nearly 1/5th of the population. Nothing to sneeze at.

  • Michael David Barber Moghul

    I have no intention of ever being nice to bigots.

  • Michael David Barber Moghul

    Perhaps they need to read this and then post copies of it on their bulletin boards right inside their church doors: http://www.apa.org/about/policy/sexual-orientation.aspx

  • Admnaismith

    Big words from a man in a purple dress.

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    I know. That’s why his concern trolling struck me as incredibly epic. But yes, it’s also incredibly irresponsible, which is why I had to stifle the urge to yell at his photo in the post up there, “You’re not helping!

    I mean, really, “We can’t be seen as pro-gay on anything, because that’ll prompt the murders of our clergy under the mistaken presumption that they’re gay”?! It’s like he’s saying it’s perfectly understandable that people want to murder gay people, so the solution is for there not to be any gay people.

    Grrrrr!

  • John De Salvio

    Archbishop Justin Welby preaches against gays while wearing a lavender habit! Bish, hon, change your dressy-poo.

  • Elijah Shalis

    The Archbishop of Canterbuy should follow the example of his leader the Defender of the Faith, The Queen whom assented to allowing gay marriages.

  • Elijah Shalis

    Yeah it seems like the right is getting more ugly recently with the gay marriage advances not more tolerant. It is really disgusting. How people can use religion to justify hating 4% of the population.

  • kingstonbears

    Nor the Archbishop of Canterbury

  • FLL

    Your comment made me realize that Welby really is being a troll here. Welby is not reacting to any current threat. I don’t think anti-gay people have yet taken any Anglican hostages in Africa. Welby is fabricating a threat—as you nailed it, “concern trolling.” Unfortunately, his concern trolling might give anti-gay operatives in Africa ideas for strategy, in which case, Welby is doing real harm.

  • 2karmanot

    Let’s be nice to the cannibals for Jesus or they will eat us.

  • Ninong

    He’s probably talking about the fact that Gene Robinson, who was openly gay and living with his male partner, was elected as Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire seven or eight years ago. That freaked out the previous Archbishop of Canterbury, who refused to invite Robinson to the usual annual gatherings of Anglican bishops. In fact, if I remember correctly, several American Episcopal parishes broke away over Robinson’s consecration as a bishop and later elevation to position of Bishop of New Hampshire.

    In general, the Anglican Communion is only slightly less intolerant of gays being gay than the Vatican. Both claim that they love the “sinners” but hate the “sin.”

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    Four word response to Archbishop Welby: “Truly EPIC concern trolling.”

  • caphillprof

    It would appear that the New Testament hasn’t actually reached Africa.

  • Hue-Man

    His real problem is trying to keep the church together when his African bishops are rabidly and openly anti-gay.

    “The Ugandan Church, along with others in Africa, has broken its ties with Anglicans in North America over the issue of gay ordinations and same-sex blessings.

    [Ugandan] Archbishop Ntagali makes it clear that he thinks Anglican leaders from the US and Canada should not be invited to the 2018 Lambeth Conference.” http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-25993140

    Translate: “Those icky North Americans are so tainted by associated with icky gays that I don’t even want them in the same room as me.” This is how Robinson was treated at the last Lambeth Conference.

  • 2patricius2

    His predecessor, Rowan Williams, was no prize either when it came to the rights of LGBT people.

  • jomicur

    And don’t forget British colonialism, which planted laws against “the abominable crime of buggery” all over Africa and Asia. And needless to say, the Church of England was a cheerful participant in that.

  • EyeTee

    Uh, yeah, Welby. Ugh. believe me, the Church of England laity and a large number of clergy are pretty horrified by this as well. The old men who are bishops (and it probably matters that in the CofE they ARE all men) are hopelessly out of date and behind the times. But remember, he’s not a Pope–just head of the church of England and a figurehead with no power internationally.

    And, he’s really blaming the Americans. Because the Episcopal Church (TEC) in this country has made great strides for equality, and it horrifies the conservatives like Welby that it is working. TEC is not fully there yet, but it’s getting there a lot faster than most. The head of the Episcopal Church (Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori) spoke out strongly against the situation in Uganda, and in many of the American dioceses in marriage-legal states, gay Episcopalians ARE getting legally and joyfuilly married IN CHURCH. Many American bishops are speaking out strongly for marriage equality. If you want to look at specific TEC voices that promote equality, in addition to the prophetic Bishop Gene Robinson, you should check out the work of the Rev Albert Ogle, who tirelessly campaigns nationally and internationally for LGBT rights in Africa.

    Religion may not be your personal thing (speaking here to everyone), but it is a big deal for many. And while Welby is extremely disappointing, the American form of Anglicanism is moving forward without him. (Yes I’m married to an Episcopalian.)

  • FLL

    By accommodating bigots in Africa, Archbishop Welby is encouraging them. Welby has also lost any moral standing by following the dictates of the people who perpetrate violence. His job, if he wants to retain any credibility, is to condemn people who perpetrate violence, not take orders from them.

  • PeteWa

    ”I’ve stood by a graveside in Africa of a group of Christians who’d been attacked because of something that had happened far, far away in America.”
    yeah, I’m sure that happened.

    but let’s just pretend that it did…
    who was it that imported and continue to import hatred of gays to Africa?
    oh yeah, that would be the christian missionaries, people like Scott Lively, etc.

  • iamlegion

    So, the very concept of defending the oppressed is alien to this despicable thug. Lovely.
    People like this are why I _don’t_ believe in God – if he existed & noticed us at all, he’d smite the shit out of so many people…

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