The Salvation Army is an anti-gay evangelical church, boycott the red kettle

The Salvation Army has suggested gays be celibate, jobless, homeless, and dead. But they’re really not anti-gay.

“On the question of hiring gay employees, ‘it really begins to chew away at he theological fabric of who we are.’” – Salvation Army, 2001 (and there are far more recent examples below)

Every year I consider it my own little personal mission to educate people about the true face of the far-right, anti-gay, evangelical Christian activist church that calls itself the Salvation Army.

Salvation-Army-red-kettleLet’s walk through the anti-gay horror that is the Salvation Army.  There is so much information, the list of anti-gay sleights is quite large. But it’s important that people be well-armed.  The Salvation Army is a hateful, intolerant, simply awful organization that goes out of its way around the world to hurt gay people.  They consider themselves an evangelical church.  And boy are they.

Please download our coupons and give them to the Salvation Army instead of your hard-earned money.  Feel free to give to any other non-hateful organization this holiday season, but avoid the Salvation Army.

salavationarmyvouchers

2012: Salvation Army Official Says Non-Celibate Gays Deserve to Die

Salvation Army Australia, this year:

On the 21st of June 2012, in an interview with Melbourne radio station Joy 94.9 FM, Major Andrew Craibe, the Salvation Army’s Territorial Media Relations Director for the Southern Territory in Victoria, stated that non-celibate gay people deserved to die. He explained that this was part of the Salvation Army’s belief system, as discussed in “Salvation Story: Salvationist Handbook of Doctrine.” He also claimed in the interview that being gay was a choice, like the consumption of alcohol.

And here’s the audio:

And here’s a partial transcript from Pink News:

In the interview, Ryan told Major Craibe that she had read the Salvation Story: Salvationist Handbook of Doctrine, published in London. She went on to point out several parts which she found disturbing including “The problem of evil” (page 28) which cites Romans 1:18-32 and its vitriolic condemnation of homosexuality.

“For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error. . .

“They know God’s decree, that those who practise such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practise them.”

Asked whether the Salvation Army took the wording literally, i.e. that practising homosexuals should be put to death, the Major Craibe replied in the affirmative. Truth Wins Out transcribed the resulting discussion

CRAIBE: Well, that’s a part of our belief system.

RYAN (cutting in): So we should die.

CRAIBE: You know, we have an alignment to the Scriptures, but that’s our belief.

RYAN: Wow. So we should die.

It goes on just as bad.

2012: Salvation Army Called Homosexuality “An Unacceptable Urge,” Defended Discrimination Against Non-Celibate Gays

And let’s zoom forward to just this year, when the Salvation Army headquarters called homosexuality “an unacceptable urge” and defended discriminating against promoting gays who aren’t celibate.

More on the unacceptable urge:

On June 18, 2012 the Salvation Army was featured in an ABC news report that stated “Salvos back away from anti-gay comments” in which the [local] army stated “The Salvation Army in Australia is distancing itself from a statement by its international parent organisation that homosexuality is “an unacceptable urge“.”

2012: Salvation Army Takes Position Against Gay Marriage in UK and Australia, Trying to Influence Legislation

Then there’s the fact that in 2012 the Salvation Army took a position against gay marriage on its UK Web site.  And the Salvation Army lobbied against gay marriage in Australia too.

Anna Brown, convener of the Victorian Gay & Lesbian Rights Lobby, said the charity had also opposed gay marriage at a House of Representatives inquiry.

“Actively campaigning against marriage equality is counter to the principles of compassion and humanity, and these are the very values that motivate most Australians to donate to the Salvation Army,” she said.

“It’s difficult to reconcile how an organisation seeking to alleviate social disadvantage can play a role in perpetuating views … founded in prejudice (that) cause significant harm to the health and wellbeing of gay, lesbian and transgender Australians and their families.”

“Homosexual practice would render any person ineligible for full membership (soldiership) in the [Salvation] Army”

More on that “homosexual urge” quote – I found it on the Salvation Army Australia’s own Web site a number of years ago:

“[Homosexual activity is] as rebellion against God’s plan for the created order…. Homosexual practice, however, is, in the light of Scripture, clearly unacceptable. Such activity is chosen behaviour and is thus a matter of the will. It is therefore able to be directed or restrained in the same way heterosexual urges are controlled. Homosexual practice would render any person ineligible for full membership (soldiership) in the [Salvation] Army.” – Salvation Army Australia Web site (emphasis added)

That’s yet another pretty clear statement that the Salvation Army support(ed) discrimination against gays.

2012: Salvation Army Allegedly Fires Employee for Being Bisexual

Danielle Morantez:

After a great deal of soul-searching, I realized that I couldn’t, so I decided to take the next step in discussing my concerns with my supervisor in accordance with employee handbook’s “conflict resolution” section: last Friday afternoon I handed Captain Stephanie a letter. In it, I came out as a bisexual woman, expressed my concerns about the aforementioned passages in the employee handbook, and attached copies of the same….

I arrived on the 23rd exhausted from a weekend filled with stress and anxiety. Imagine my surprise, then, when Captains Bill and Stephanie informed me that they had decided not to fire me, that they respected my integrity and honesty, and that they were deeply grateful for my presence on the Salvation Army team. They even said that Asit George, a Salvation Army Major who outranked them, had approved their decision, saying that it was completely fine to keep me on staff. I asked the captains point blank if I needed to be worried about the jeopardy of my job any further, and they said “no.”

I was so relieved to be able to keep both my job and my integrity that Adam and I went out for lunch to celebrate. After my break, Capt. Stephanie and I began packing backpacks full of brand-new school supplies for distribution to the children of low-income families. We had a wonderful and candid conversation about family dynamics, our belief systems, and our pasts.

Forced to Fire Me
The conversation was interrupted by Captain Bill, who summoned Stephanie into his office. They both returned at about 4pm, their eyes brimming with tears. We returned to the office, where they told me that they had just been informed that their decision to keep me had been overruled. Captains Bill and Stephanie were being forced to fire me. Their superiors told them that they were not allowed to even discuss it with me – I was to sign an exit interview sheet and they were to immediately escort me from the property.

Feeling shocked and deeply betrayed, I asked if I could at least show them my system for reorganizing files, so that they could more efficiently help the clients in my absence. They agreed. Stephanie was heartbroken. She cried the entire time we went through the paperwork, continuously apologizing to me and saying that firing me was “the worst thing [she’s] ever had to do.” Captain Bill said that he was only allowed to say what the Salvation Army told him to and that since he was forbidden from revealing his own personal opinion, he would not say another word.

And for the rest of the time, he didn’t. He just sat there with tears in his eyes.

Salvation Army USA Turned Away Gay Couple in Need

But what about Hood’s other assertion, that of course the Salvation Army would never discriminate against gays in its provision of services?  Well, ask gay blogger Bil Browning and his boyfriend – because they say the Salvation Army discriminated against them because they’re gay.  From the NYT, last year:

Bil Browning and his boyfriend were homeless. To protect the identity of the boyfriend (now ex-boyfriend), Mr. Browning will not say specifically where, just that it was in “southern Indiana,” about 20 years ago. But he is very explicit about who refused to give them shelter.“The Salvation Army refused to help us,” Mr. Browning recalls, “unless we broke up and then left the ‘sinful homosexual lifestyle’ behind. We slept on the street, and they didn’t help when we declined to break up at their insistence.”

Mr. Browning’s boyfriend was wearing a “Silence = Death” AIDS pin on his jacket, which must have tipped off the Salvation Army worker. “He told us we needed to be saved,” Mr. Browning says. “If we were willing to attend church services, he could help. We would have to break up, only one of us could stay in the shelter, and if there was room for the other, he would have to be on the opposite side of the room, and we wouldn’t even look at each other.”

2011: Salvation Army Calls on Gays to be Celibate

And here’s quote the NYT pulled from the Salvation Army Web site last year, before the SA changed the link and put something completely different up there, in order to make them sound super pro-gay:

The Salvation Army’s “Position Statement” on homosexuality, found on its Web site, reads in part: “The Salvation Army does not consider same-sex orientation blameworthy in itself. Homosexual conduct, like heterosexual conduct, requires individual responsibility and must be guided by the light of scriptural teaching. Scripture forbids sexual intimacy between members of the same sex. The Salvation Army believes, therefore, that Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life.”

So, the Salvation Army, that is simply about helping people, has a stated position that gay people should be celibate.

What does that have to do with helping poor people, having a public statement on your Web site telling gay people to be celibate?  Sure not sounding like your run of the mill charity, are they?

2004: Salvation Army Threatens to Stop Serving NYC Rather than Obey Pro-gay Law

The NYT also notes that in 2004, the Salvation Army threatened to pull out of NYC after the city council passed an ordinance requiring that organizations that get contracts with the city must provide benefits to the partners of gay employees.  Again, they’re not simply a charity.

2001: Salvation Army Secretly Works with Bush Administration to Make it Easier to Discriminate Against Gays

Back in 2001, the salvation Army’s George Hood was interviewing with the Washington Post because the Salvation Army got caught secretly asking the Bush administration to make it easier for government-funded organizations to discriminate against gays:

“The [Bush’ administration is working with the nation’s largest charity, the Salvation Army, to make it easier for government-funded religious groups to practice hiring discrimination against gay people, according to an internal Salvation Army document.

The White House has made a “firm commitment” to the Salvation Army to issue a regulation protecting such charities from state and city efforts to prevent discrimination against gays in hiring and domestic- partner benefits, according to the Salvation Army report. The Salvation Army, in turn, has agreed to use its clout to promote the administration’s “faith-based” social services initiative, which seeks to direct more government funds to religious charities….

George Hood, a senior official with the Salvation Army, said the group never discriminates in delivering its services, but on the question of hiring gay employees, ‘it really begins to chew away at he theological fabric of who we are.’”- Washington Post, 7/10/2001.

Yeah, no one knows how these rumors about the Salvation Army being anti-gay got started.  No one except the Salvation Army.

2001: Salvation Army Rescinds Domestic Partner Benefits for Gay Employees on West Coast

Then there’s this:

The Salvation Army Western Territory approved a plan in October 2001 to start offering domestic-partnership benefits to gay employees. Members of various evangelical Christian interest groups protested the decision. Focus on the Family founder James Dobson excoriated the Salvation Army for abandoning its “moral integrity” and urged his radio listeners to bombard the organization’s offices with phone calls and letters. The American Family Association also accused the Salvation Army of a “monstrous … appeasement of sin” that resulted in a “betrayal of the church.” In November 2001 The Salvation Army nation wide rescinded the Western Territory’s decision with an announcement that it would only provide benefits coverage for different-sex spouses and dependent children of its employees.

2000: Salvation Army Lobbies Against Repeal of Hideously Anti-Gay Law in Scotland

In Scotland, back in 2000, the Salvation Army publicly lobbied against the repeal of a hateful anti-gay law:

The amendment stated that a local authority “shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality” or “promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship”.

1980s: Salvation Army Lobbies for Anti-gay Laws in New Zealand

The Salvation Army also had a history of lobbying for anti-gay laws in New Zealand all the way back to the 1980s.

Now let’s revisit Stephanie Miller’s interview last year with Salvation Army Spokesman George Hood, who’s a big old liar

STEPHANIE MILLER: We’ve gotten a lot of letters about the Salvation Army being anti-gay, can you address that?

SALVATION ARMY’S GEORGE HOOD: Well it’s a great misunderstanding that’s spread across the country, and we’re doing everything we can to re-educate and help people understand that the very mission of the Salvation Army calls for meeting the needs of humans without discrimination…. So discrimination is not something that we would gladly carry the banner or pride over, we want to dispel the notion that we do discriminate when the fact is we’re working very hard not discriminating and it is a part of our mission.

MILLERYou know, Chris, you can help me with some of the things, you know, again, you’re right, Major, once things get out there, you know

HOODMany of those things start fueling through blog sites and postings on the Internet and it’s really really tough to shut them down when they get out there.

MILLER: And you don’t discriminate against hiring gays?

HOOD: We do not.  We have many who work for us and will gladly tell you they work for us.  It’s not a question that we ask in an interview process.

MILLER: Okay.

That is a lie, straight from the mouth of the Salvation Army’s number one spokesman who has held the job for years. How do we know?  From a quote a Salvation Army spokesman gave to the Washington Post.  That spokesman’s name is George Hood – the same man who denied all of this to Stephanie Miller last year:

George Hood, a senior official with the Salvation Army, said the group never discriminates in delivering its services, but on the question of hiring gay employees, ‘it really begins to chew away at he theological fabric of who we are.’”- Washington Post, 7/10/2001

Download these vouchers and put them in the Salvation Army’s red kettles instead of cash – give your money to a charity that doesn’t hate.

salavation army vouchers anti-gay

When you give to the Salvation Army, you helped finance their anti-gay advocacy

The Salvation Army has been using a portion of your donations to their little kettles to advocate against the civil rights of gays and lesbians for decades, and they’re still doing it today.

The Salvation Army isn’t simply a charity that “happens” to be evangelical. The Salvation Army is a religious right charity that actively involves itself in promoting an anti-gay agenda. They are dedicated to opposing marriage equality. They are dedicated to advocating that all gays should be celibate. And they have repeatedly said that if you’re not gay and not celibate, then you’re not welcome to work in the upper levels of the Salvation Army.

And at that point, they’re not simply a charity that happens to be evangelical. They’re anti-gay religious right political activists who happen to do charity work. And I’m happy to help out charity when I can, but there are a lot of charities to give to, and I don’t need to give my money to someone who takes a portion of those donations in their little red kettles and sends them to the mother ship to advocate for anti-gay politics.

And yes, the money you put in that red kettle is being used to finance the Salvation Army’s campaign against gay and lesbian civil rights.  From Snopes:

The Salvation Army’s kettle campaign raises up to 70 percent of the Salvation Army’s total annual income.

By some reports, it’s as much as 88%.

And at least ten percent of those donations get sent to the higher levels of the Salvation Army to eventually be used as administrative costs for, among other things, anti-gay advocacy.  Who pays the guy to write the policy statement against local gay marriage legislation?  You do.  Don’t believe me about it, here’s the New York Times from 2011:

George Hood, a Salvation Army spokesman, said all revenue from Salvation Army thrift stores is used locally. But he said a small percentage of money dropped into the red kettles finds its way to Washington — where it helps to pay the salaries of politically active staff members like Mr. Hood. Every local unit pays 10 percent of its revenue to a state or regional division — there are 40 divisions in the United States — and every division pays 10 percent of its revenue to one of four national territories, each of which foots a quarter of the national budget.

In other words, of a dollar dropped into a red kettle in New York City, a quarter of a penny ends up at national headquarters, where conversations with the government — not lobbying, Mr. Hood says — may take place.

Not lobbying?  Please.  What do you call conspiring with Karl Rove to make regulations more amenable to discriminating against gays in employment?  What do you call the Salvation Army weighing in, in country after country, against gay marriage, and in favor of anti-gay legislation, for decades now?  Not lobbying?  Please. Maybe it’s technically not “lobbying,” in the legal definition.  But is the Salvation Army using your money to advocate for evangelical causes, including bashing gays, at the federal level worldwide?  Yes.

Yet another lie through misdirection from the Salvation Army.

And note that, if it isn’t our old pal Salvation Army spokesman, George Hood, this time trying to downplay how much of your donations go to anti-gay advocacy.  Only a quarter of a percent of every penny donated through those Red Kettles goes to the evil Salvation Army religious right activists in Washington, DC.  That doesn’t sound like much, does it?

Let’s do the math, George, shall we?

I initially looked at the Salvation Army’s annual income, since that’s what Snopes said – 70% of their annual income comes from the Red Kettles.  Well, their annual income is around $2.8 billion a year.  If you look at that figure, a huge amount of the Red Kettle money is going to the Salvation Army’s federal advocacy work against you and me, to the tune of $7m a year.

But if you look at it another way, it’s less, but not insignificant:

  1. Salvation Army’s Hood claims that “only” a quarter of each penny donated through those red kettles goes to the Salvation Army’s ant-gay advocacy and other government advocacy.
  2. We already know that up to 88% of the Salvation Army’s total annual income is raised from the Red Kettle campaign.  But let’s be conservative and use Snopes’ figure of 70% of the Salvation Army’s annual budget coming from the Red Kettles.
  3. The Salvation Army takes in $190.7 million each year in fundraising dollars.
  4. So 70% of that income comes from the Red Kettles – that would mean the Salvation Army makes $133m a year from its Red Kettles, and in fact I found a Salvation Army press release from 2011 in which they claim to have made $147.6m least year from their Red Kettle drive.
  5. “Only” 0.25 cents of every dollar donated (or 0.25%) to the Red Kettle goes to the anti-gay bigots running the Salvation Army in Washington, DC.  How much is 0.25% of $147.6m?  $369,000.
  6. So, our donations to the Salvation Army’s Red Kettles are earning the Salvation Army $369,000 every year to spend in Washington, DC to advocate against our civil rights.  

It ain’t nothing.  And in fact it means that your donations to the Salvation Army are being used for far-right, anti-gay, evangelical advocacy.  It doesn’t matter to what degree, the donations are tainted by hate.

Of course, the Salvation Army reports that it actually gets $1.6 billion a year in direct support from the public, presumably from other donations beyond the Red Kettle.  Looking at that figure, and applying the same 0.25 cents of every suddenly you find that $4 million a year from the public goes to the Salvation Army’s evangelical advocacy at the federal level.

And that really ain’t nothing.

The Salvation Army isn’t trying to make amends for years of anti-gay prejudice.  They’re out there actively lying about their record, and smearing those of who hold them accountable for their bigotry by accusing us of spreading Internet lies on “blog sites and postings on the Internet.”

Nothing says “bad apple” like a church that thinks it’s best defense is a lie.

I won’t go through the entire litany of the Salvation Army’s anti-gay pedigree, but here are a few headline from just last year alone, 2012:

  • Salvation Army official says gays deserve to die.
  • Salvation Army headquarters calls homosexuality “an uncontrollable urge” that need to be suppressed.
  • Salvation Army says they’ll discriminate in hiring against any gays who aren’t celibate.
  • Salvation Army UK and Australi take public position against marriage equality in effort to block local pro-gay marriage legislative efforts.
  • Salvation Army reportedly fires employee for being bisexual.

Don’t forget to download and print off your vouchers, below, to put in those Red Kettles – this is a donation of good advice that the Red Cross really needs.salavation army vouchers anti-gay


(I’m told that in order to actually see my Facebook posts in your feed, you need to “follow” me – so say the experts.)


Follow me on Twitter: @aravosis | @americablog | @americabloggay | Facebook | Google+ | LinkedIn. John Aravosis is the editor of AMERICAblog, which he founded in 2004. He has a joint law degree (JD) and masters in Foreign Service from Georgetown (1989); and worked in the US Senate, World Bank, Children's Defense Fund, and as a stringer for the Economist. Frequent TV pundit: O'Reilly Factor, Hardball, World News Tonight, Nightline & Reliable Sources. Bio, .

Share This Post

  • Joseph Kool

    Should change the name to buttfucking homo blog

  • velvetnitemare

    oh I see… so God’s will is to help only those that are what he says is right to be, but the rest are hethens and therefore deserve no help.
    Also, most LGBt people prefer to help simply as people rather tan as christians because they actually understand that before anything we are humans and if we don’t stick together we’re gonna die. Something christians don’t understand nor want to.

  • Strudelhouse

    I wish they wouldn’t stand in my way whenever I try to go into stores. My ‘people’ aren’t good enough for you, then neither is my ‘money’. Now stop trying to guilt trip me and stand off to the side.

  • underwater

    I am a devoted donator to the Salvation Army – especially after I witnessed their disaster relief efforts in my hometown. They give freely, as Christ did, to all who are in need. Christ taught us to love our neighbor but that does not mean that we should compromise our beliefs. The Salvation Army is dedicated to helping others according to God’s will… The bible articulates God’s will as clearly endorsing the union of a man and woman in marriage. Why must you try to destroy the good that the Salvation Army does because you do not follow Christian beliefs? If you do not like their beliefs, then do not accept their assistance. But please, allow them to continue helping those in need….We are so thankful for their assistance!! I did not see any pro-LGBT groups feeding the flood victims in our town.

  • Chris Hansen

    Informed- Is there a point you are trying to make?

  • David J. Bauman

    Informative article, and I plan on using the Vouchers, but I’d like to point out a typo:

    The end of the article says, “this is a donation of good advice that the Red Cross really needs.” Should it not say “Salvation Army” instead of Red Cross?

  • Strepsi

    You must be working some highly visible faggotry. Keep it up!

  • Strepsi

    Interesting implication, that people deserve civil equality only for factors that are genetically programmed. I have seen many Christian organizations demanding freedom of religion and full equality — is there a Christian gene?

  • http://www.newmillgay.com/ The_Fixer

    I am certain that is not pertinent to the discussion. No one brought up a “Gay Gene” in this article, or in the comments below.

    But since you brought it up, that’s not the latest scientific thinking. The latest theoretical explanation is that sexual orientation is dependent upon epigenetic expression. Here’s epigenetics explained: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

    The topic of discussion is the Salvation Army soliciting donations as a charitable organization, when in fact, they are a church. A portion of the donations that they obtain is spent on anti-gay lobbying activity. Why should anyone support a religious organization that believes gay people should be discriminated against? Why would any gay person want to give money to an organization that works against our interests? Why would any straight ally do the same, for that matter?

    That’s the discussion, Do try to keep up.

  • informed

    There’s no gay gene. None. No scientific evidence.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    My dear, the only true gay agenda is turning a swine’s ear into a silk purse—–get in line.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    You are so right about the Southern Baptists. Generally no one mentions them.

  • Indigo

    I wasn’t aware that I was talking about “support for any religion.” But I share your concern that donations are best made to a secular cause.

  • sane37

    What you’re missing (but probably not) is that support for any religion is not charity. Not in the true sense.

    Donate to a secular cause instead.

  • Mike_in_the_Tundra

    The real gay agenda:

    http://summitlake.com/Humor/Homosexual_Agenda.php

    They left off working to be treated like all other citizens.

  • Badgerite

    Yes I do. But frequently there are not.
    The agenda thing was referring to Tillyosu’s comment about the gay ‘radical agenda’. I was saying that the agenda is actually a human one and not particularly radical. I was speaking about the ‘gay agenda’, not the Christian agenda. Frankly I think the Christian agenda with respect to gays is terribly wrong and misguided. That they would let that interfere with helping people in any way is, to my way of thinking, ridiculous.

  • MyrddinWilt

    Romans is generally agreed to be genuine though.

    Constantine definitely hijacked the religion. The reason that Christian theology became consistent is that all the bishops who refused to agree to the outcome were executed.

  • MyrddinWilt

    Paul could only corrupt the teachings of Jesus if Jesus were an actual historical figure. The big problem with that theory is that Paul never refers to any act of Jesus on earth and the only knowledge of him that he cites is in ‘holy scripture’ which is rather odd when the earliest date for Mathew is after Paul is dead. So either we have lost the scriptures Paul is referring to or he is referring to Elijah/Elisha by the formal name ‘savior’ in the same way that Jewish writers refer to Jaweh by the formal name ‘lord’.

    What is even more suspicious is that it appears Mathew was written first and after that Mark and Luke/Acts and John last. The story gets bigger over time as more material is added. Thomas is a collection of sayings that would have been added to over time and combined from multiple sources. Given two lists of the sayings of the savior (Jesus literally means savior) an ancient scribe would naturally combine the two into one.

    Mathew seems to have been the ancient version of the Left Behind series or Jesus of Montreal, a fiction setting the events of scripture into the contemporary world. It is easy to see the market for such material around AD70 when the Romans have just destroyed the temple. Mark and Luke both produced sequels elaborating on the original work.

    Contrary to the claims of Christians, we have absolutely no contemporary evidence for a historical Jesus outside the gospels, none, zilch, nada. We have abundant evidence of the existence of the Roman emperors, their families etc. from multiple literary and archeological sources. We have no more evidence for a historical Jesus than a historical Moses or for that matter a historical Hercules.

    Paul was a Hellenized Jew who made a living peddling a version of the Jewish faith to gentiles. Greece imported religions from all over the ancient world. They had their own versions of Egyptian, Syrian etc. religions as well as their own deities. It is easy to see how a monotheistic religion would be attractive in a society that had invented philosophy since a single creator God is rather more internally consistent than the pantheon described by Homer.

    We don’t know what the temple cult theology was really about at this point, all that we have left is the continuing tradition which is a compromise with the Roman authorities. What does seem to be the case though is that rather more emphasis was placed on the messianic prophecy and that this was a constant source of friction with the Roman authorities.

  • Indigo

    I’ve been thinking about that dilemma and what the Great Wheel of the Mind has shown me is a little disturbing. Here’s what I think now: there’s no measurable distinction I can see between anti-gay [and human rights] policies in the Salvation Army and Cardinal Dolan’s rabid anti-gay [and human rights] presentation of Catholic dogma. Now tell me this, why boycott the Red Kettle and then dash off to enjoy the muzack and glamour of Midnight Mass? The difference, as far as I can see, is that the Salvation Army is a low social class operation while the Roman Church has all the splendor of Frankish European Culture on display plus a [possibly sincere] PR genius on the papal throne. What am I missing here?

  • Anonymous

    I agree with you. And it’s not worth arguing someone who doesn’t know the facts. People who ask “why is everyone angry?” over and over while ignoring the response are annoying. It’s like a broken record with these types.

  • Anonymous

    Clearly you have no idea how they spend their money. They do support genocide with their “charity” money. And empty adjectives like “wholesome” are just your perception, not reality.

  • Anonymous

    If that money doesn’t go to the poor, then no, we don’t need to support it. There are plenty of “charity” organizations that don’t apply their principles. The church sponsors many as well.

  • Guest

    ..

  • Anonymous

    As well as exploitation of the homeless and elderly for sympathy. You don’t see Goodwill publicly advertising like this.

  • Anonymous

    In FL they proposed amendment “Religious Freedom” which would GIVE churches tax money. Jeb Bush came forward to justify it by saying it would “go to charities.” I thought the church didn’t have a political agenda, didn’t turn anyone away? (scoff)

  • Anonymous

    Christian radicals/the literal Bible aren’t violent, right?

  • Thom Allen

    Pretty much all of the churches do the same. They’re exempt from taxes and use some of their funds to push their political agendas. Look at the Catholic church: anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-birth control, anti-women. The major religions’ lobbying expenses in 2011, according the the Pew Foundation, were estimated to be almost $400 MILLION dollars. So churches, who are supposed to remain out of politics to maintain their tax-exempt status, are deliberately violating that law to achieve their own poltical and social ends.

  • Thom Allen

    Sure.

    I believed in them, too. I always donated furniture, tools, books, etc. to them. I thought that they were teaching the disabled job skills to help them support themselves. When I read the story, I couldn’t believe it. Taking advantage of their work force like that. Aad then making excuses how their third-world wages are a benefit – without those Goodwill jobs they’d be unemployed. What a bunch of unprincipled scumbags.

  • crazymonkeylady

    Because I am bad, I put all my Chuck E. Cheese tokens in the kettle, along with this slip.

  • http://www.newmillgay.com/ The_Fixer

    Thom, thanks for the link and info. Now I’m distressed. This was an organization that I believed in, and locally, I still do. But an executive working for a non-profit with the stated goals of Goodwill and bringing home more than $1Million is something I can’t get behind.

    It gets dangerously close to being exploitive when you’re paying disabled employees so little.

    I think they need a housecleaning over there.

  • Kelly

    What I don’t get is how they are allowed to continue lobbying and play a role in the political system when they don’t pay taxes.

  • http://www.americablog.com/ Naja pallida

    The Salvation Army has long said it doesn’t want gay money anyway. Look up the 1982 Chicago Knights issue.

  • Monoceros Forth

    Ted Campbell’s excellent introduction to the various Christian denominations, Christian Confessions, treats the Salvation Army as denomination of its own with a distinct theology.

    I wonder how many people also know that the “Army” part of the Salvation Army is not a joke. They’ve got their own quasi-military hierarchy with make-believe officers and “Articles of War” that the Army’s adherents are bound to affirm. I wonder if L. Ron Hubbard had the Sally Ann in mind when he invented his pretend Navy, the “Sea Org”, for Scientology.

  • BloggerDave

    I’ve known this for years and I have told others as well… However, this voucher idea is genius… They will come in handy as wrapping paper as well as red pot stuffing…

  • http://fighttherightwingnuts.blogspot.com/ mike31c

    These pigs will not get a dime from me.

  • http://AMERICAblog.com/ John Aravosis

    Tilly, as everyone knows, the Salvation Army is not the only poverty organization in America, or the world. If you’re worried about the poor starving, then feel free to donate to your local homeless shelter. I’m sure they’d appreciate some volunteer hours as well.

  • Elizabeth Stewart

    Don’t you think there should be public, government supported shelters for the homeless (many of whom are mentally ill) instead of religious charities which force their crazy religious beliefs on desperate people in exchange for food and shelter? If Christians really valued human beings, they wouldn’t promote their otherworldly mythology to the most vulnerable people, and they wouldn’t lobby against and vote against having secular shelters for such people.

  • http://AMERICAblog.com/ John Aravosis

    Exactly, there are ample poverty organizations to donate to.

  • http://AMERICAblog.com/ John Aravosis

    LOL I don’t pick the ads, that’s funny that it came up.

  • chris10858

    Back in the early 2000s, as a college student, I interned at a social service group that worked with churches to allow homeless families to sleep in their buildings during the week. Almost all of the our clients were single moms with kids, many of whom had became homeless due to such things as severe illness or injury and unable to work.

    The group I worked with, although based in Christian belief systems, did not discriminate against gay and lesbian families. In fact, during my time there, we had 2 families. While several denominations turned them away (Im talking about YOU Southern Baptists), several churches took the families in (United Church of Christ and Unitarian just to name a few).

    HOWEVER, our day center facilities were rented from the Salvation Army. We were told that if the families did not attend the Salvation Army church services on Sunday mornings, they had to leave the property… despite hte fact that our center was in a separate area from the rest of the SAs sanctuary and other facilities.

    So, if a person were Jewish, Catholic, or simply did not want to attend their service, they had to leave for several hours each Sunday. Since most of these single moms with little kids had no car, they were forced to walk down to a McDonalds about half a mile away, even in the freezing cold, rain or snow.

    I swore at that time that I would never give another penny to the Salvation Army. If you force someone to attend a church service in exchange for a place to sleep or some food, that is by no means charity. When I read my Bible, it talks about giving to those in need with no hope or expectation of anything in return. That is called compassion and true mercy. Anything short of that is simply quid pro quo (i.e. something for something).

  • http://www.americablog.com/ Naja pallida

    Apparently a lot of businesses fail to understand that too, because I doubt most retail companies would ordinarily allow any other church stand out in front of their doors harassing every customer coming and going for money.

  • pappyvet

    And since gay folk are not the only sinners in the minds of these people. [You women not being submissive and duly obedient ] allow me to give a tasty morsel for consideration.

    National Geographic reports that scientists have measured the myriad handprints (including the Pech Merle cave in southern France) that are part of prehistoric cave art and come to the conclusion that they are the hands of women.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    yep

  • Stev84

    Even worse, they campaigned against decriminalizing homosexuality. And against repealing Britain’s Section 28 law, which was basically like Russia’s “gay propaganda” law, except it only applied to government actions.

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    That confusion is a marketing strategy they’ve been using for decades. Ask the average person on the street, “What is the Salvation Army?” — and the answer most often will be “oh they’re a charity group.”

    They’re not. They register everywhere as a church. I don’t donate to churches to which I don’t belong and especially not to those who have a message to which I have moral objections. In this case, it’s both the fact they do actively try to con people into forgetting the SA is actually a church and their casually sociopathic ‘genocide would be preferable’ attitude towards LGBTs.

  • pappyvet

    Love the gay dating ad John. I could not think of a better place for it. ;]

  • pappyvet

    That is why I said to you, Be of good courage, and if you are discouraged be encouraged in the presence of the different forms of nature.

    Chapter 4 verse 31
    The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene

  • http://www.americablog.com/ Naja pallida

    Stores… you mean places where their entire inventory is given to them for free, but yet they often charge near-new prices? I like thrift shops, but I gave up on the Salvation Army stores a long time ago because if I wanted to pay the same price, I might as well just buy something new.

  • ckg1

    Look at what John posted earlier in re trying to advocate against same sex marriage in the UK and Australia, even lobbying against it in the Aussie case. If that’s not trying to “force their beliefs on anyone”, I don’t know what is.

  • http://www.americablog.com/ Naja pallida

    And when you search for the Salvation Army, it says they’re a church and not required to provide any useful information to help potential donors make an educated decision… and they choose not to make that kind of information public on their own web site either.

  • GMalone

    Can they not be wholesome with gay scouts?

  • GMalone

    Hello Tillyosu
    Just a question, are you gay?

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    ‘Wholesome’ = ‘anti-gay to the point of lobbying against LGBT civil rights and advocating in a general way for the genocide of gay people.’

    Got it. Clearly we’re not speaking the same language or using the same dictionaries.

  • Number Six

    Heretic! Blasphemer! Reactionary!

    How dare you doubt the wisdom of the old men who decided what you should and shouldn’t know? I suppose that next you’ll be reading that slut Mary Magdalene’s writings!

    What you need is to learn your place before you find yourself without a man to nurture and take care of you!

    Oh, and ignore that man behind the curtain!

    /snark

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    I’m talking about the unedited versions.

  • Whitewitch

    Just as a side note it appears that they paid many of their bell-ringers…some as much as $8 an hour…they also recruit them from their homeless shelters and retirement homes (who knew they had retirement homes. Sounds like a mega-corporation to me….

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    It’s even simpler than that. The Salvation Army isn’t just a religious organization. Everywhere they exist, they are registered as a church.

    I would never want to belong to the Salvation Army church because I find portions of their beliefs abhorrent. The charity stuff is great. Their administrative overhead is disturbingly high. Their anti-gay rights lobbying is an abomination. I therefore am not going to give to a church that lobbies against my civil rights.

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    The Salvation Army is not entitled to the charitable donations my wife and I give every month, every year. Choosing who gets our money isn’t morally wrong, and we’re sure as hell not going to give to any organization that actively lobbies against our civil rights as human beings.

    If you want to disparage our choice to give our money to a more deserving, more inclusive, less bigoted organization unreasonable intolerance and a radical agenda, you need to have your head examined. Might want to check on your heart, too — I think there’s some missing.

  • Thom Allen

    Fixer,

    Goodwill pays subminimum wages to some handicapped employees and defends the practice stating that they agree to work for that wage of their own free will. More here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/20/goodwill-employees-disabilities-_n_3307843.html

  • http://heimaey.us/ heimaey

    I see them outside all the time and they ignore me

  • Thom Allen

    If you want to verify what goes on behind the scenes with the charity you’re thinking of donating to (how much money goes to salaries, administration, advertising vs. gets spent on the real purpose of the charity) or if you want to find a reputable charity to donate to, or one run by LGBTQs you can go to Charity Navigator https://www.charitynavigator.org/ for more information.

  • Thom Allen

    Of COURSE they force their beliefs on others. When someone is in a SA shelter, he has to attend bible study and SA religious services. The same holds for those who go through SA detoxification and rehabilitation. They get indoctrinated with SA teachings. You either have no clue what you’re talking about or you’re a very deliberate liar.

  • Bill_Perdue

    Boycott the SA, Coke, NBC and all anti-LGBT groups.

  • jomicur

    They are so concerned with the poor and the hungry that if they find out a poor, hungry person is gay they refuse him services and kick him out of their shelters. Just like the good Christians they are. And that’s not to mention the fact that they have lobbied quite actively against every legal measure for treating gay people decently in every jurisdiction where they operate. With “charitable organizations” like that, who needs hate groups?

  • Monoceros Forth

    …and include only the four Gospels plus the book of Thomas.

    You mean that document that purports to describe Jesus’s turning clay birds into live ones and cursing people so on? I think whatever instincts ruled against its inclusion in the canon were sound. The Gospels that we have pertain almost entirely to Jesus’s doings as an adult while references to his birth and youth are few and vague, which makes sense really. Detailed stories about childhood precocity, though, sound less Jesusy and more Heraclean.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    That point on your head can be seen for for what it is—-a dim watt.

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    True enough — which is also why I argued in favor of going back to the original-original texts, and not the revised versions which became the ‘official’ Gospels.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Yep, ole’ Tillytroll believes, along with the Salvation Army, that gays should be put to death. That’s some kind of wholesome.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    You are so obsessed with the ‘gay agenda’. I suggest you come out of the closet and realize that the gay agenda is actually called civil rights.

  • http://www.newmillgay.com/ The_Fixer

    You’re basically trolling here. Hope you enjoy the attention. By the way, it’s a pretty fleeting thing, that trolling-derived attention. Which explains why your profile features nothing but troll comments. Have to keep getting your fix, I suppose.

    Oh, by the way, the name says it all – “Salvation Army”. They are a religious organization and they do force their beliefs on people.

    Except when it comes to collecting money. Then they’re non-denominational. Funny how that works.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Oh please, give it a rest you miserable little hateful twisted punk.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Snake eyes back at ya Tillytroll. What a contemptible human being you are. Even so, I’s share a meal with you.

  • Wesinoregon

    After these “religious” groups skim off what they think God is paying them, many times there is very little trickling down to the poor.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Food Banks, Women’s shelters, Homeless Soup Kitchens

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Salvation Army also mistreats it employees—–misogyny is rampant in many of their stores.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Starve the Salvation Army

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Same here: AIDS food bank—Food For Though Sonoma County.

  • http://www.newmillgay.com/ The_Fixer

    The local food bank is an excellent suggestion. I also have no qualms about giving to Goodwill Industries. That’s not a specific holiday thing, of course. But they are supportive of the LGBT community, patiently help people who are handicapped in one way or another, and seem to be genuine in their desire to help those who have problems helping themselves. I can’t recall a scandal involving Goodwill, and they don’t force a religion down one’s throat when trying to help people.

    Oh, there was one “scandal” that happened locally. One of the employees of a Goodwill store was recently discovered giving discounts to needy people in one of their thrift stores. Goodwill initially thought it was theft, but later dropped the charges when it was discovered that the employee wasn’t profiting.

    I think the Goodwill Industries people are very committed to what they do, and although they do provide space to a few church groups, they are secular in their approach to helping people. I really like that.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    I offer to decorate your double-wide as a peace offering.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    I’d say malice of forethought. Stupid deserves compassion.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    “the problem of Pauline Christianity” Exactly. The Pauline doctrines are heretical and many of them derived from what is called the false Paul.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Donate to local food banks!

  • Indigo

    Same here.

  • cole3244

    i don’t donate to any entity that has a religious element to it. two things i view negatively are religion & white men in three piece suits, they steal more in an hour than petty thieves do in a year combined.

  • FLL

    I agree completely. A thorough revision of what Christians consider holy scripture is in order. People will demand a reason, which brings us back to the point nicho makes below: the First Council of Nicaea (325 c.e.) amounts to Constantine and his political allies hijacking the Christian religion for their purposes, not the least of which was more effectively controlling the population. That seems like a pretty good reason for revising Christian scripture to me—that is, if Christianity is to survive in any form in the 21st century. But then my viewpoint is that of a secular outsider. Christianity is their baby; it’s their project, not mine.

  • nicho

    A lot depends on which “Paul” you’re talking about. There were several authors to the letters attributed to Paul. Untangling them is a bitch. And, the four gospels are pretty much after-the-fact forgeries to support the Constantinian hijacking of Christianity.

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    I think I’ve used the term Paulite or Paulist, but Pauline works. In my studies as to the origins of the Bible, how it was developed and all that, it was interesting to learn not only what was decided to be included and what was declared unacceptable or outright heresy, but also the organization of it. (All of which happened when the mouldering, corrupt old Roman empire took over Christianity.)

    You’d think that the penultimate books would be the Gospels — the books of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. Y’know, for a religion that supposedly puts Jesus Christ at the top of its Earthly pantheon in terms of both new rule for living and revisions of the old Abrahamaic laws. The Golden Rule, don’t judge others, pray quietly and all that.

    But then they added Paul’s letters after the Gospels, in which Paul spent almost all his time essentially contradicting and undoing everything Jesus tried to do. “Nah, go ahead and judge. Those people are evil and deserve to die. Pray loudly and often.” (As for Revelations, just my opinion that one felt like a blatant fear-mongering money grab. “Donate everything to the Church because the world is gonna end any day now!”)

    If it was up to me to rewrite the Bible, I’d have the scholars go back to the original Greek and Aramaic as much as possible, do a new non-biased translation, and include only the four Gospels plus the book of Thomas. That’s it. If all the rules in Corinthians and Exodus and the Old Testament are supposed to be superseded by the new law handed down by Jesus, then so be it. Don’t let there be any footing for “Oh Jesus said something about being pro-family, and husbands being loyal to wives, which means gays shouldn’t marry…and heck, let’s kill them, since that’s what Corinthians and Paul said to do.”

  • nicho

    We can’t support them all. So pick the ones that aren’t hateful bigots. Support them — unless, of course, you’re a hateful bigot.

  • nicho

    Only bigoted assholes use the term “PC” — unless they’re talking about computers.

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    That’s what we do, too. Albuquerque’s ‘Roadrunner Food Bank.’

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    The Salvation Army isn’t a ‘group.’ It’s a church. A church that likes to fool people into thinking they’re nothing but a charity. A church that has repeatedly used its status to ask for exemptions from any law they don’t feel like following. A church that uses that confusion over what it really is in order to gain access to otherwise secular or public locations such as stores, malls, government buildings and street-corners.

    And I’m sorry you’re such an ignorant homophobe, but those of us who are LGBT don’t think there’s anything radical with not wanting to be condemned to death. If that objection turns you off, well that’s too f*cking bad.

  • FLL

    It’s intriguing that the Salvation Army’s Salvationist Handbook of Doctrine highlights the “death for gays” section of Paul’s Epistle to the Romans (Romans 1:18-32) when it discusses what the Salvation Army calls “the problem of evil.” Whether or not individual Salvation Army leaders feel that gay people should die, they are placing Pauline scriptural verses that say exactly that at the center of the Salvation Army’s Salvationist Handbook of Doctrine. I think people are smart enough to connect the dots.

    Beyond the damning things that it says about the Salvation Army, the scriptural verse from Romans points out the real problem of evil, which is the problem of Pauline Christianity. Claiming that the Old Testament is in error but the New Testament is just fine really doesn’t cut it. Both parts of the Christian Bible are poisoned by hate, and they are poisoned to their very core. The Apostle Paul is responsible for formulating Christian theology, and he added a long list of elements to the Christian religion which are not mentioned by Jesus, a list too long to discuss here. I’m not sure, but I think I’ve seen BeccaM use the term Pauline Christianity, and that raises the question of why modern Christians should accept the Bible as their scripture, if Pauline Christianity is so thoroughly poisoned with hate. Perhaps that is the impetus behind the so-called Red Letter Bible editions in which only the words of Jesus are printed in red type. Do you think this is the first feeble movement away from Pauline Christianity?

  • goulo

    It’s not at all a false analogy. I’m asking you what if Salvation Army raised money to feed the poor just like they do now, but they ALSO happened to lobby against equal rights for blacks and refused to hire blacks, even though this is not their organizational purpose, just like in reality they also happen to lobby against equal rights for gays and refuse to hire gays.

    I.e. what if being “anti-black” was not their organizational purpose, but they were simply not complicit in advancing the black agenda, as you phrase it. Would you happily give them money for their laudable organizational purpose of feeding the poor and attack anyone who didn’t want to give money to a group which is “not complicit in advancing the black agenda” (i.e. refuses to hire blacks and agitates politically for blacks to not have legal equality)?

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    I for one actually appreciate it when the bigots make it clear that anti-gay hate is a core tenet of their ‘theological fabric.’ It reminds us to question everything else they do.

  • http://www.americablog.com/ Naja pallida

    I give directly to my local food bank… because I know everything contributed to them goes directly back to the community. There is no waste of the overhead involved in maintaining a huge multi-national religious corporation.

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    If they don’t talk to us or ask us to give, my wife and I usually just ignore ‘em. Unless we have some of John’s vouchers on hand.

    But as it turns out, sometimes the bell-ringers aren’t even Salvation Army employees or volunteers. A couple years ago, when we were living on the other side of Albuquerque, we saw one out in front of the Smith’s supermarket we sometimes shopped at — and she was wearing a Smith’s shirt and vest uniform. When we asked (ready to dump some of those vouchers into the bucket), the employee said their manager had assigned them to bucket duty.

    She was on the clock, so at least she was being paid to be an annoyance. And when we asked if we could put some of those vouchers in, she looked at one, laughed and said, “Sure, go right ahead. I wouldn’t be here if my boss wasn’t making me.”

  • MoonDragon

    And Hitler liked dogs (Okay, I’ll take the Godwin on that). I’ve chosen to give to our local people for years. They’re run by people I know and trust who treat all people with respect and dignity. I’ve always found the TSA a bit self-righteous and full of themselves.

    Why is it that people who whine the hardest about enforced PC when they’re required (or even merely requested) to show common courtesy to people to whom they feel superior are the first to sob that people who call them on their shit are being mean old bullies.

    Sheesh.

  • Quilla

    Loving the Vouchers!

    Thanks. I’m going to use them.

  • Monoceros Forth

    Oh, brother, whingeing about “political correctness” now. Suddenly I’m transported back to the ’90s. Do you have one thought in your head that isn’t stale? Maybe you’ll be complaining about hippies next.

  • Badgerite

    That’s fine. The only two organizations in town that actually provide shelter for the homeless, (other than the jail) as far as I know, are religious. The Salvation Army and the Catholic Church. I’m just saying it is not a ‘radical’ agenda. It is a human agenda. It is an agenda that values the human being.

  • MyrddinWilt

    Gather money to give to the poor so that they will then have a captive audience for their message

    It is not entirely self-sacrificing or disinterested.

  • Monoceros Forth

    Not to mention that there are many other scouting organizations inspired by the principles of Baden-Powell and yet who also manage not to be noisome Jesus freaks at the same time.

  • MyrddinWilt

    Well actually it was because I can’t stand them ringing that bloody bell long before any other reason came up. So this is one of those boycotts I can’t really participate in because I would have never considered participating otherwise. Yeah, I might stick a voucher in their kettle but they would have never received a dime in any case.

    The idea of sticking that bloody bell in a certain place always comes to mind.

  • pappyvet

    Wholesome. I would like to explore that point in relation to their stated beliefs concerning gay and lesbian folk

  • Monoceros Forth

    Which was? Did you have one other than trying to work “gay agenda” into as many sentences as possible? Sheesh, you’re more obsessed with this imaginary “agenda” than people who are actually gay.

  • Tillyosu

    Yes, because these poor souls sitting out in the cold to gather money for the poor need to listen to your bullshit PC ninnying.

  • pappyvet

    “chew away at the theological fabric of who we are?” A theology of intolerance is not a theology that leads anywhere but the path of hatred. Hannibal Lecter couldn’t chew enough to get rid of the stench.

  • judybrowni

    Don’t contribute, and always tell the bell ringers why.

  • Tillyosu

    Thank you for making my point.

  • Monoceros Forth

    I wouldn’t bring up the Boy Scouts if I were you, sweetie. It’s poor salesmanship.

    Also, learn how to write original posts rather than copy-pasting a few pet phrases.

  • Tillyosu

    They’re not trying to force their beliefs on anyone! That’s the point. Just like the boy scouts, they are a very wholesome organization with a very wholesome purpose. Yet because they are not complicit in advancing the gay agenda, they are somehow now this ugly, vile, bigoted entity?

  • Tillyosu

    That’s a false analogy. The Salvation Army is not an “anti-gay” organization, in that that is not their organizational purpose. They simply have not been complicit in advancing the gay agenda. And for that grave crime, they deserve to have their very laudable purpose denied?

  • Indigo

    I hope you’re right about that. The lady ringing the bell outside the grocery store I frequent is a very pleasant lady with a bright smile and friendly greeting for everyone. I return her greeting with a smile but I keep my billfold closed.

  • sonoitabear

    Your local Food Bank, especially now that Republicans have cut SNAP subsidies…

  • Indigo

    The “theological fabric” of what they are grows out of a profound stupidity. There’s no cure for stupid.

  • sonoitabear

    I donate to my local NON-religious-affiliated food bank which goes MILES further in actually helping the poor…

  • sonoitabear

    I smile and say to them, “I’ll donate when the Salvation Army repents of its unChristian ways” and walk on…

  • goulo

    If the Salvation Army were spending money to politically lobby against equal rights for blacks, and were publicly speaking out against interracial marriage, and were refusing to hire blacks because it was against their principles, etc, would you similarly defend them and attack people who were not comfortable giving them money?

  • Whitewitch

    I suggest you give locally – not to large organizations that can’t actually care about people on a real level – at least in my humble opinion it is best to give at home – except when a large disaster strikes – then you just have to research and do you best.

    For example, here at home I give to a local charity that helps people suffering from AIDS and cancer who need food, shelter and care (Mama’s Kitchen). and at Christmas I do give to the Marines Toy Drive – because no child should be without toys….

    I used to do the Angel gifting with Salvation Army before I knew how ugly they really are – that is no longer the case. I try to find a local orphanage or youth home to give toys to.

  • matt227

    I just ignore them no matter how badly I want to say something nasty. The guy ringing the bell probably is just as unaware of the controversy as most other people.

  • Monoceros Forth

    I’d start by looking into local food banks and how to help them, myself.

  • ArthurH

    Any suggestions of charities that help the poor and homeless that we can redirect our Holiday donations to?

  • Monoceros Forth

    At the very least the activities of a Christian charity should not be spared the same harsh scrutiny that ought to be applied to any charity. Where is the money actually going? What are the services they actually provide? Good intentions aren’t enough–the road to Hell is paved with them, so I’ve heard.

  • Whitewitch

    Love your post…just one comment – the SA does not really care for the homeless, needy and poor – what they are really doing is recruiting participants to their organization by pretending they care whether the poor eat or children get toys.

  • Whitewitch

    Oh snap – well stated…

  • Whitewitch

    I am not a Christian and therefore can not and will not support the Salvation Army. Just because they are the “largest” organization does not make them the best to give too. Like the Susan G. Korman organization and its ugly truth – we as sentient beings MUST choose wisely that which we support and not support it just because it is the biggest. Read, educate yourself and see if you really believe in them when you are done. They are pretty ugly really.

  • Monoceros Forth

    And if you are so obsessed with the gay agenda and advancing the gay agenda–

    As opposed to being obsessed with forcing a particularly vile flavor of Christianity on everyone? That’s an OK “agenda” then?

  • Monoceros Forth

    There are about a million better ways to help poor people than giving a dime to idiots who get moist in the pants with ludicrous, martial fantasies about being “warriors for Christ” or whatever the hell it is they imagine themselves to be. Why should I indulge their wet dream of being in an “army” with one cent of my money?

  • Whitewitch

    There are many way to feed the hungry without forcing religion on them. It is hard enough for the poor and hungry – why lay blame and guilt on top of their suffering. Try to find a nice organization that actually give the poor and hungry a boot up…without pointing out to them what sinners, looser, and moochers they are.

    No one here is advocating starving the poor – and if that is what you got from this article…you are not a human with a heart.

  • Aubrey Haltom

    That’s such a false dichotomy – either support the Salvation Army, or people will starve.

    Really? The point behind Aravois’ article is that the SA is not an organization whose primary purpose is to care for the homeless, needy, poor. Rather, it is an evangelical, rightwing organization that (also) provides support for these communities.

    And the Salvation Army is not the only organization which supports needy communities and individuals. There are numerous alternatives for helping the homeless and needy – which don’t also have as a mission statement the repression of a peoples’ civil rights and well-being.

    It’s sad, Tillyosu, that you could read the Salvation Army’s quotes re: death to gays, gays as a ‘threat to the fabric of the SA’, etc… – and conclude that the gay community is the one with a “radical agenda”.

  • Whitewitch

    Excellent article John….

    There are lots of other good reasons for not support the Salvation Army. One of which is the fact that anyone who accepts their “charity” is also forced to listen and often fain acceptance of their beliefs.

    I like to keep all my giving away from any “religious based” organization – because Christian (i.e., teaching of Christ) they are NOT.

  • Tillyosu

    My only point is that we should probably support any organization that helps the poor, regardless of their stance on homosexuality. And if you are so obsessed with the gay agenda and advancing the gay agenda, that you would advocate boycotting an organization that helps the poor (probably the largest), then you need to seriously reevaluate your priorities as a human being. YES, I’m looking at you Aravosis.

  • Badgerite

    Their ‘radical agenda’ is to be treated with the respect and regard that you would treat a human being with. Nothing more. Nothing less.
    Even if you believe that being gay is a sin. So what? So are a lot of things that most people do all the time (like envy and greed, etc) and somehow that doesn’t get them treated as anything other than people. It doesn’t get them denied charitable services if they are in need.
    It doesn’t get them denied jobs or benefits for their loved ones. And it usually doesn’t give people any license to kill them.
    And this particular blog, which I have followed for a while now, is very interested in helping and feeding the poor. But the stance of the Salvation Army on this issue puts the gay activist community in the position of being against your organization or against themselves.
    Their position is understandable. So rather than respond with hate, why not change your organization to behave in a more Christian manner with respect to this community of people.
    There is the Old Testament and then there came the New Testament. One was meant to change and fulfill the other. Was it not?

  • goulo

    Yeah, it’s too bad that Salvation Army is the only organization in existence which helps poor people. If only there were some OTHER ways to help the poor other than giving money to Salvation Army! It is so very sad.

  • Tillyosu

    Yes, let’s starve the poor because this group does not like teh gays. This is precisely why people are so turned off by the gay radical agenda.

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