Franklin Graham’s Merry Christmas gay-bashing and Pope-bashing

American evangelist Billy Graham’s son Franklin is hopping mad about the homos this holiday season.

You see, Franklin is upset that the Pope might be giving the-gay too much of a pass, so Graham decided Christmas was the time to remind people that hate is a family value, at least in evangelical-land.

Graham, the son-bigot, not the father-bigot, was on NBC’s Meet the Press this morning, and was reportedly very concerned that the Pope was going all pink on us.  Graham especially took issue with the Pope’s recent comments about gays, when he said “who am I to judge?”

Franklin Graham is to judge, that’s who.


Franklin Graham says God never changes his mind, except with slavery of course, which God was in favor of, but now isn’t. NBC dutifully didn’t bother asking Graham about that little chestnut.

“I think he’s right when he says he’s not the judge,” Graham told Meet the Press. “He’s not the judge. God is the judge.”  Yeah, and we’re to believe that Graham knows God’s will better than the Pope does – why’s that?

Graham added that he’s upset with society, and the Pope, changing their views on the-gay.  “God would have to shift — and God doesn’t,” Graham said. “God’s word is the same, yesterday and today and a million years from now.”

What a bunch of utter lies.  God’s word is the same, always?  Actually, God was for slavery up until the 1950s. Now he’s not. How does Graham reconcile that one away? Did God change his mind on whether blacks should be slaves, or was God simply wrong on the slavery thing from the beginning?  And did NBC’s Meet the Press bother even asking Franklin Graham about this obvious contradiction?  No.

Let’s continue on this track about God never changing his mind.  Franklin’s dad, Billy, is a Southern Baptist minister. Let me remind you that it was only 1995 that the Southern Baptist church renounced slavery — 1995. In other words, Franky’s dad’s God changed his mind on slavery in 1995.

But putting aside the Baptists’ late-found embrace of desegregation, that means – if we’re being charitable here – that once upon a time Franklin Graham’s buddies in the Southern Baptist Convention spoke for God and got it wrong.

In other words, God’s words were not “the same , yesterday and today and a million years from now.”  Either God changed his mind, or Franklin Graham’s buddies got it wrong.

Either way, there’s no reason to pay any heed to anything Franklin Graham has to say, lest the Southern Baptists change their mind yet again on the inviolable word of God.

A bit more on the Bible’s support for slavery, and Franklin Graham’s ridiculous assertion that the interpretation of the Bible’s moral admonitions never change. From PBS:

As we’ve already suggested in talking about the curse on Ham or Canaan, the Bible has been interpreted to justify slavery and racism. Another story that’s been used by people who don’t accept the idea of the curse on Ham, but want to say that there are innate differences that should require people to be segregated is the story of the Tower of Babel. The story of the Tower of Babel has been interpreted as meaning that cultures should not mix, languages should not mix. The Afrikaaners used this in South Africa, the Dutch Reform Church, to justify apartheid. Recently, Bob Jones University used this doctrine to justify a ban on interracial dating. So the Tower of Babel story has been used more often than people realize.

More on the Bible’s justification of slavery, via a separate PBS story. And looky there, right in the middle of the quote, something from a Baptist preacher using the Bible and Jesus to defend slavery:

Proponents of slavery needed to look no further than the Bible to justify “the peculiar institution.”

A common argument for slavery was found in the book of Genesis, chapter 9, in which Noah’s youngest son Ham saw the nakedness of his father and had his brothers cover him. Noah then cursed Ham to be a servant to his brothers forever: “Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers” (Genesis 9:25-26). Many interpreted Ham’s curse as placed upon people of darker skin color – specifically, Africans. The argument’s circular logic stated that since Ham’s descendants were to be slaves forever, and Africans were already slaves and inferior, then they should remain in slavery. Proponents also pointed to the New Testament where, they argued, Christ never condemned slavery.

“…Jesus Christ recognized this institution as one that was lawful among men, and regulated its relative duties… I affirm then, first, (and no man denies,) that Jesus Christ has not abolished slavery by a prohibitory command.” –Reverend Thorton Stringfellow, a Baptist minister of Culpeper County, Virginia, author of the extensively distributed “A Scriptural View” (1856)

Some argued that, far from being an evil or a human institution merely permitted by God, slavery was in fact a “positive good” because it exposed “heathens” to Christianity. The plausibility of this argument would survive in the “Bible Belt” beyond the end of slavery, and would be used into the mid-twentieth century as a defense of the subjugation of Blacks as part of God’s continuing plan for their progress from African savagery to civilized Americans.

It was an obvious question for Graham, to ask him about the church changing its view on slavery, and Meet the Press skipped the chance, because they were too busy doing a puff-piece about how holier-than-thou Graham is. Can’t ask the Bible-bigot any tough questions – that wouldn’t be appropriate for Christmas-time, even though Graham is using Christmas-time to bash people he doesn’t like.

Franklin Graham is a bigot, and a not very smart one at that.  It’s time media like Meet the Press stopped coddling gay-bashers wrapped in a cloak of religion. It’s one thing for Franklin Graham to have his own warped views on the word of God. It’s quite another for Graham to outright lie about those views, and for NBC to not even challenge him on it.

And finally, what a hateful man Franklin Graham has to be in order to choose Christmas as the time to send out his message of hate against gays and Catholics.  This is the problem of activist religions like Baptists and Mormons.  There’s so much hate and absolutism brewing underneath the surface that they just can’t help themselves.

(I’m told that in order to better see my Facebook posts in your feed, you need to “follow” me.)

Follow me on Twitter: @aravosis | @americablog | @americabloggay | Facebook | Instagram | Google+ | LinkedIn. John Aravosis is the Executive Editor of AMERICAblog, which he founded in 2004. He has a joint law degree (JD) and masters in Foreign Service from Georgetown; and has worked in the US Senate, World Bank, Children's Defense Fund, the United Nations Development Programme, and as a stringer for the Economist. He is a frequent TV pundit, having appeared on the O'Reilly Factor, Hardball, World News Tonight, Nightline, AM Joy & Reliable Sources, among others. John lives in Washington, DC. .

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  • Karey Jackson

    If you can’t handle God saying your life style is wrong, then take it up with him. Truth is hate to those who hate truth. But all you are doing to the lost in the life style is ensuring a one way ticket to hell. You stop those you LOVE from dying not push them over the cliff. Call it what you like.

  • pericles9

    Thank you, Blue. I too have been purple-exed regarding the great tower. While considering it in context of the Graham religious affiliation, and my visiting to a local mega-church at the invitation of my plumber, might not the structure be more correctly referenced as the “Tower of Baptists?”

  • Butch1

    He and his father do not like to be reminded of their past or their changes. They tap dance around all of that and get made if you pursue them on it. He is a charlatan of the highest order. Why people look up to these fools and consider them important speakers for “god” amazes me. He’s a simple charlatan who pushes people around with his religion and expects people to jump when he says so.

  • “The bible is full of incest and polygamy. The church doesn’t promote those as a biblical values today.” Except for the Mormons.

  • Poor little Frankie actually thinks he has a soul.

  • labman57

    Curious. The Christian conservative’s perception of God appears to be one of a thin-skinned, petty, spiteful, ego-centric, malevolent, abusive, micro-managing sadist — with a regard for mankind somewhat akin to how many of them treat their wives.

    Cherry-picking biblical scripture to support one’s personal bigotry and hatred is as intellectually lazy as it is dishonest. If you truly believe that the Bible represents the word of God, then you should follow ALL of its pronouncements literally, even those that contradict other passages.

    Better start stockpiling your stones — you’ll have a whole lot of casting to do …

  • I can’t lay the blame entirely at their feet. They get minimal coverage when they do make themselves visible, and what they get is mostly in the gay press — the “mainstream” is much more interested in the more controversial figures, because that generates ratings, and the “news” outlets are, after all, businesses.

    Add in that it’s the considered opinion of the Very Serious People that America is a center-right country, and that people who are opposed to the “Christian” right are marginal figures, and you have the real Christians pretty effectively muzzled.

  • willardcottrell

    They’ll never do it. The so-called ‘faithful’ are IMHO a pussilanimous group. I know so many ‘christians’ who refuse to deal w/ the conflict.

  • willardcottrell

    I say again – the splitting of hairs. I suggest throwing out the whole lot of it.
    My new creed: I believe in the Higgs Bosum maker of heaven and earth.

  • willardcottrell

    Oh, I think that’s the same splitting of hairs as saying we hate the sin not the sinner.

  • willardcottrell

    I disagree. It’s those who call themselves ‘faithful christians’ yet reply with defining silence to those like the father and son , along w/ the rest of the shysters, Huckabee, Perkins, Joel (squinty eyes fake smile) Osteen

  • Clevelandchick

    Meet The Press has never asked a follow up question, not even the posthumously idolized Russert. Gregory is just a bigger suck up to perceived power. Slavery is just one of the values God jettisoned according to the church in modern times. We don’t stone people to death for eating shellfish or committing adultery these days either. The bible is full of incest and polygamy. The church doesn’t promote those as a biblical values today.

  • That fits in with what I’ve been saying for a while: you can find something in the scriptures/doctrine/teachings of any religion to justify what you wanted to do anyway. It’s from those tenets that you choose to follow that the rest of us know what kind of person you are.

  • KingCranky

    Since no two people can, will or do follow the same exact path-organized religion-to enlightenment, spirituality seems an appropriate term if an individual’s searching for God/Higher Consciousness/Enlightenment.

  • KingCranky

    Martin Luther King Jr used his religion to advance the causes of the oppressed, in complete opposition of the regressive agendas Graham & Hagee-and so many “family values” groups-push on a constant basis.

  • KingCranky

    Add Randall Terry to your list.

  • KingCranky

    I should have posted my comment-my settings are “Oldest”-in reply to yours.

    Namely, God’s mind changed after flooding the earth and the waters receded, when the Lord promised no more floods to punish a sinful populace. After taking one course of action, ruling the very same thing off-limits in the future sure seems like “change”.

  • KingCranky

    Apparently, Graham doesn’t even know his Old Testament too well.

    Graham should be asked…..

    Why, if God doesn’t change, the Lord proclaimed no more floods to wash clean the sins of a wicked world after the waters receded?

    Ruling out a future course of action after it’s been done sure seems like “change” to me.

  • smkngman3

    His dad hated Jews! Yet as with the Jews of the OT, mass murder was OK.
    Check out the Nixon tapes.(Vietnam)
    So much for “Thou shall not kill”.

  • GoBlue

    I’d say Franklin is more like a creation of Poppy Bush and Barbara. Franklin’s resemblance to George W. is uncanny.

  • GoBlue

    The Tower of Babel story never made much sense to me. Suddenly the people who were building the tower were all speaking different languages, so they couldn’t understand each other and had to stop building the tower. And this was a punishment from God for the arrogance of believing they could build a tower to heaven.

    An omniscient God could have simply waited for the laws of engineering and physics to take effect. That is, how high could they build a tower without steel? And even if they could build a tower high enough to reach into the clouds, wouldn’t the lack of oxygen halt any further construction?

  • BlueIdaho

    Totally agree!

  • Badgerite

    I had heard it was in response to the Holocaust on a classical music show. But either way, if there is a God he/she would write such a piece of music. For me, it just really is inexplicable that there are people who can’t see this point. I mean, what has any of us done lately to combat what was clearly monstrous evil? What did that guy from the Duck Dynasty ever do? Alan Turing put his prodigious gifts to use to help defeat Hitler. The soul is not expressed through one’s sexual orientation. It is expressed through whether is it an expression of unselfish and caring love or not.
    God knows, one can point to many straight sexual relationships that do not clear that bar. And plenty of gay ones that do.
    I prefer to think of Franklin Graham as misguided.

  • pappyvet

    That sounds wonderful to me but I must confess that I haven’t the slightest idea how to go about it.

  • Monoceros Forth

    I feel like I owe you, and a lot of other people here, a coherent explanation of what’s on my mind when it comes to this issue. But there is nothing more ephemeral than comments on a heavily-trafficked Internet forum.

    Honestly I’d like nothing better than to get a good number of the regulars here round a table, sip a bit of red wine and discuss matters spiritual and religious. Of course you’d all have to put up with the slow unravelling of my thoughts and my orotund style, which gets worse when I’ve been sipping red wine.

  • bkmn

    Remember when the Graham ministry moved its HQ out of Minneapolis after the city council passed an anti-discrimination ordinance?

    Oh the good times!

  • pappyvet

    Sorry Mike , the spiritual is incorporeal ,claiming to know how to achieve it is the business.

  • One of the CA 36,000+

    Nice comment.

    However, I have to correct one thing: The “Adagio for Strings” was NOT written after the Jewish Holocaust. Barber’s String Quartet (Opus 11) was written in 1935-1936. The second movement was arranged for full string orchestra and dubbed “Adagio for Strings” in 1936. All before the Holocaust was underway.

    But nice touch– bringing up the culture-changing contributions of two gay men (Barber and Turing) to contrast against Franklin Graham’s loathsome mewlings. What a horrible, insignificant little insect Franklin Graham is…!!

  • Badgerite

    1 Corinthians 13:13
    “And now abideth faith, hope and charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”
    Seems pretty clear to me.
    God doesn’t shift, but our interpretation of God does all the time. Does he consider it impossible for him to have misinterpreted God? I don’t. The books that we know as the Bible were written many years, sometimes hundreds of years, after the fact and by people who had no first hand experience of the events or people depicted. This was oral tradition, stories retold, time and again, written down. When the Bible was compiled many, many gospels were excluded ( see the gospels found at Nag Hammadi). The people who made the selection were people. Not God. The Bible has God saying and validating many stupid things. And since one would rely on God to not say stupid things, the stupid things must be the opinion of men. Yes? This does not mean that the Bible does not have moral force. But it does mean that some of the opinions of men can be discarded without imperiling
    the underlying belief. If Franklin Graham can listen to Samuel Barber’s Adagio for Strings, written after the Jewish Holocaust and tell me that that came from an evil place, I would say he doesn’t have ears.
    And what did Franklin Graham do to defeat Hitler? Maybe he should check out what Alan Turing did.
    These were gifts from God, that these men were given, if a God there is, and they used them to good ends. What more can be asked of a human being?

  • RobNYNY1957

    I don’t know if it would be possible to dirty the name. The old man has been a grifter for fifty years. When has his fraud empire ever established a hospital?

  • RobNYNY1957

    Moving into the family grift.

  • I’ve opted for pappyvet’s usage: the likes of Graham, Hagee, leaders of the anti-gay hate groups, etc., fall under the heading of “Christians” with sarcasm quotes. You see, I know a lot of real Christians, and they’re not like that at all.

  • The problem with that is that “religion” is one of those umbrella terms that covers a lot of different kinds of things: we say “religion” and tend to think of something organized, with hierarchies and doctrines, an institution that, as you note, has authority over the group. A lot of traditional aboriginal religions aren’t like that at all — there will be a priest/shaman, who is the interlocutor between the people and the spirit world, but his/her purview is strictly limited, and the priest/shaman almost never exercises any temporal power. (And it occurs to me that a lot of the priest’s activity is oriented toward keeping the gods focused on their own business — basically, making sure the world runs smoothly — and not interfering with mortal affairs.)

  • I’d just add that spirituality is an individual, personal thing — that connection to the rest of the universe and what Mark Rothko called “the numinous”: those aspects of the universe that allow of no “explanation,” but just are.

    Religion, as far as I can see, tries to institutionalize that, and cheapens it: it becomes mere dogma and doctrine — rules rather than volition — and loses that sense of connectedness.

  • It’s not the religion, is the people who claim to follow it: you can find something in the sacred texts of any religion to justify what you wanted to do anyway. And it seems that fundamentalists have memorized the words, but never quite get what they mean.

  • ““God would have to shift — and God doesn’t,” Graham said. “God’s word is
    the same, yesterday and today and a million years from now.””

    Life is change; stasis is death. You do the math.

  • JLSR

    I feel the same way. They stand a chance of gaining and/or holding onto their ‘flock’ if they show they are non-judgmental and more inclusive, displaying traits closer to Jesus than the vengeful, cruel God of the Old Testament. They have that chance with this Pope, not with these crazy, hateful, judgmental clowns!

  • JLSR

    This is why the Bible is dangerous. Because there are fundamentalist Sharia/Christians in this world who take it as “gospel!”

  • kenthomes

    The Buybull is mostly just plagiarized stories for the Sumerians and Egyptians, ect.

  • kenthomes

    These people are the reason I am an Atheist. I really did not question religion too much until they came along. Now I have no belief in any supernatural “God”. The wonder of the universe, being married to my wonderful husband of 32 years and the love of friends is more than enough for me to get through this life. Also, being able to base decisions on rational thinking fulfills me more than being told what to think. These God Botherer’s will be the death of all of us.

  • Abby

    Even the ministry is wearing no clothes.

  • Mark_in_MN

    Possibly. But the path of spirituality is itself a big field of business. Our original comment implies that business is simply bad or all about non-spiritual, grubby money and greed, while spirituality is free from such constraints and contaminants. Look at all the books on the subject, the stores that cater to various bits associated with “spirituality,” all the various healers, guides, courses, etc. There is lots of money being made in spirituality outside of any religion in the United States. A claim that religion is a business but spirituality is somehow not or free from that, is not accurate.

  • pappyvet

    Then let the “Christian” leaders in our country let loose their voices and remove these motes.

  • pappyvet

    Promoting a religion that claims to speak to the spiritual is the business

  • NMRon

    Yet another example of how the evangelical blasphemer-cults are more than willing to throw Christ’s teachings under the bus, if it doesn’t suit their agenda of hate and that of their 1% masters. The countdown begins for their return to unrestrained hatred for Christ the Redeemer.

  • pappyvet

    Yes but much of dogma is false, because it is a contradiction of the very nature of the Gods and of Truth. Truth cannot be shut up in a single book, or in a single religion. Yet how many times have we heard that there is only one way ,one path. It is impossible to put the quest for a spiritual life in a box and say “there now.”

  • BillFromDover

    How many religions could exist without something unifying them in hate; especially those of different religions?

    Can anybody come up with a better reason why the Middle East and other parts of the world are such a fucking mess?

    This sick fuck is fine, fine example of why Christian Evangelicals are #1 in this category in America.

    How sad is it that in this day and age so many of us still can’t recognize a self-appointed witch doctor when we see one?

  • Monoceros Forth

    Then skip the top 20%. *winks*

  • Calumny’s X

    There is so much hate on this page.

  • Whitewitch

    Very well said lynchie…seems we pissed off some one…we got the dreaded down-vote.arrrggggg.

  • Mark_in_MN

    Not a few of the great Christian writers, both historical and more contemporary, have made much the same argument about the nature of Christianity. It’s just that Christianity has an inescapable component of community. I think Monoceros Forth is right to be wary of such dichotomies, and right to note that it seems a pretty close variation of good vs. evil. The problem is that any human individual or community is subjected to follies and foibles, even downright evil. That would apply even if you try to split “religion” from “spiritually.”

    I think it’s a very valid critique of modern Christianity (and perhaps not so modern Christianity, too), perhaps especially Protestantism, that it becomes living in one’s head and cloning to beliefs. (Ironically, one of the central points of the Reformation was to get away from security-seeking, but Protestantism has been all too eager to simply rearrange the methods of security-seeking. It’s one of those basic human follies and foibles, I’m afraid.) Christianity all too often gets a fair length away from practice and what you call “the juiciness of spiritual life” even though that’s really the “juiciness” of Christianity, too.

  • lynchie

    He hasn’t accumulated enough money yet

  • lynchie

    Yes you can. God only has power when you need someone to tell you what to do and what to think.

  • lynchie

    Religions all have a leader who talks to god and dictates what you should do, how to act, who to hate and how much money to donate. Spirituallity is an internal calmness that many people draw strength from. Organized religion is designed to raise fear in the hearts and minds of its members and allows the extraction of maximum wealth to enable buying your way into the after life.

  • Mark_in_MN

    I’m not so sure that the canard about the God of the New Testament and the God of the Old Testament here really stands up to close scrutiny of either testament. I don’t think the primary purpose of the Bible is actually supposed to be a place to be told what’s right and what’s wrong. I think it has other purposes for those who value it’s writings. Alas, all too many people use it as an “answer key” or even as little else than a morality handbook. It’s their loss and to the detriment of everyone else, I think. Interestingly, one could quote a passage from the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible (Jeremiah 31) to make a very similar claim about not needing the biblical text to teach right from wrong: “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” Of course, many in Christianity think that this relates to Christianity (which would itself be a complex subject, in my estimation), even though all too many Christians don’t seem to actually make this a part of their beliefs and practice.

  • pappyvet

    A genuine spiritual path is not about living in our heads and clinging to beliefs weaved by our security-seeking minds. Sure, our beliefs and values can guide us and remind us of how we want to live, such as being kind to people and respectful toward living things. But the juiciness of spiritual life lies in how it connects us to ourselves, others, and life itself. It’s about being bodily-alive in the world.

  • Mark_in_MN

    Perhaps I’m not following, or I’m unsure of the antecedents of each “they” and “them,” but the point is that apostasy and heresy, and related concerns, have a long history within Christianity, even in periods where Christians had no political power and were subjected to persecution on the part of the Roman state. One might well advance a thesis that what Constantine and successors did in enforcing orthodoxy was no different, only that the sanctioned religion now became not the former Greco-Roman/Imperial religious system, but one form of Christianity. There is at least some level of truth to that, whether it’s the whole truth is another question. The source of ideas, however, wouldn’t be just the context of the Roman Empire, but also the Hebrew/Israelite/Judean religious background of Christianity, a background that also had significant squabbles over acceptable doctrines and faithfulness to God. This probably would actually be the stronger influence with respect to concerns about heresy and apostasy in early Christianity.

  • I’ve tried to use that argument in the past, and got told I’m not allowed to question what people call themselves. I think it all falls back on the penchant for words to not have any meaning to certain people any more. Saying “I’m a Christian” can mean anything at all.

  • Mark_in_MN

    Except that “spirituality” is itself a big field for business in the United States.

  • Maybe the reformed and medicated God of the New Testament, but not the God of the Old Testament who delighted in torturing even his most ardent believers. People like Graham claim their belief system stems from the New, but belongs more with the Old. My personal definition of “true believer” would be anyone who can understand that you shouldn’t need an often laughably questionable, old book to teach you right from wrong.

  • Whitewitch

    Off-Topic….Robin Roberts thanks her long-time girlfriend Amber for her support during her struggle with Cancer on her Facebook Page. How joyous that people can openly and lovingly thank those they love IN PUBLIC without fear of losing their job or being destroyed!

  • arcadesproject

    Poor boy. I bet he don’t have any fun whatsoever. Wonder what he’ll do on New Years. Crouch in a closet and spit nails, I expect.

  • Mark_in_MN

    Might it also suggest that those crowds aren’t really Christian, or at least have lost their way?

  • Bomer

    I’m down for practicing witchcraft and destroying capitalism. Where do I sign up?

  • Dakotahgeo

    Ever since Frankie the Graham took over for his beloved dad, Billy, he has dirtied and sullied the name of the BG Evangelistic Association. He was a jerk before he took over, he’s a jerk now, and he will always be a hypocritical jerk in the future. i don’t always agree with Dr. Billy Graham but he has a ton of respect from me because of his love and caring for others. They just need a new leader with a clean slate!

  • Whitewitch

    Oh I was just being rude….I know he doesn’t think that – it is we that he believes are the blasphemers. I am not sure they are allowed to laugh on the way to the bank…but a little pud pulling is allowed.

  • Thom Allen

    God also said that women should be silent in church. Divorce is a no no. Remarriage after divorce leads to adultery. Adulterers should be stoned to death. Help the poor. Don’t amass wealth. Kids should be killed for sassing their parents. Don’t to touch cloven-hoofed animals or their carcasses (football anyone?), and so much more that is ignored on a daily basis.

  • Whitewitch

    Snap and double snap…you got it my friend and such a God is of no interest to me either…I refuse to worship a creature so selfish, hating and evil.

  • Thom Allen

    They don’t care about Jesus weeping as long as they can laugh all the way to the bank.

  • Whitewitch

    I know – it is awful how Mr. Graham is blaspheming God…telling him who to judge and how to run his earth. Hating the creations of God must make Jesus weep.

  • Thom Allen

    And attracting subscribers to join them there.

  • Thom Allen

    Just dial 1-800-Paprocki for help with those exoecisms. He’s an expert now, since he chased all of the demons out of Illinois.

  • Whitewitch

    Since they believe in hell – I believe they are intent on creating their own hell right here on earth, full of hate and bile.

  • Whitewitch

    Sadly they are the loudest those who hate…..I remember that song …..I think perhaps they have become lost in their hate and that hate is feed daily on the radio and tv…tis sad..truly sad.

  • Whitewitch

    You did not ask me Monoceros Forth, however I think spirituality is something internal…something people seek on their own in silence and not with a group. Religion on the other hand, at least to me, seems to be the organization of people who are trying to control others, tell them what to believe and use the aurthority of an unknown God to enforce that control. Not sure it is about being spiritual at all…just being as you are told to be.

  • Whitewitch

    Seems as if the man behind the curtain is a bit of an old fart…that needs to be exorcised!

  • Thom Allen

    And the Grahams are blasphemers along with Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts and the rest of those religious assshat preacher-moochers.

  • Whitewitch

    I supposed then if God is the Judge, then Mr. Graham should shut his trap and let God do the Judging and Mr. Graham should be silent on the issue.

  • billylost

    just a dick

  • jm2

    no, it was Smith, but Gregory did the lead in saying Billy, the father, was fighting for his life at 95. more like fighting not to die in case he was all wrong & his hell is just around the corner…

  • Monoceros Forth

    I’ve long been wary of the purported divide between “religion” and “spirituality”, especially since as with so many similar ostensible dichotomies it comes pretty close to yet another variation on good vs. evil. In this case, spirituality is assumed to be good; religion is assumed to be evil. But why should that be so? What is, in fact, “spirituality” in the sense intended here, and what is “religion”?

  • Jesussaves

    You don’t blaspheme God and get away with it.

  • Actually all those “heresies” were around going back to Christ; they just were not public. Infant baptism came during the development of the doctrine of Original Sin. I spoke with Baptists, and they hold that doctrine as heresy. Later the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception built upon Original Sin in 1854, about the time of Bernadette Soubirous of Lourdes.
    I personally find Protestantism not my cup of tea, but I do try to follow the doctrines to understand them. As I stated earlier today, I am taking time to examine the first few centuries of Christianity to figure it out.

  • Billy Graham may well have been sincere. The media did a good job of propping him up and ignoring ethical and other problems with his life and ministry. You don’t have to look very hard to find dirt that you’ll never hear on the nightly news programs on which he’s treated as a saint. But Franklin, can’t even fake being sincere. He was the black sheep son who failed at everything and decided to go into the very lucrative family racket. At least his father had a bit of tact when taking on controversial issues. Franklin does nothing but pander to the worst elements of fundamentalist christianity. He’s like a creation of The Onion only he’s (supposedly) for real.

  • Believe it or not, there are fundamentalist churches that hate on the Southern Baptists for being too “liberal”. As crazy as the SBC is, there’s a whole world of crazy to the right of them. (Not justifying the SBC. I was raised in that loony-bin. If you weren’t, you don’t know the half of it!)

  • More than likely, the Christians just followed the example of the Romans. Surely they didn’t get all their ideas in a vacuum. The Romans considered them atheists because they refused to worship the emperor as a god (such as currently with Ronald Reagan). So they persecuted them over orthodox religious doctrine and linked it with political disloyalty to the state. Once Roman Catholicism took over by the fifth century, it used the same thing.

  • emjayay

    Why is Franklin Graham any kind of authority on anything? A daughter of Dear Abby who wasn’t really Abby either being the new Dear Abby is one thing. But what is this, the North Korea of Christianity? Could it be, I don’t know, a really super lucrative association with a famous father?

  • pappyvet

    Religion is a business. Spirituality is a path. Walk the path and ignore the man behind the curtain.

  • Do it on a Sunday and ask why he supports those who work on the Sabbath.

  • It’s ironic that they call themselves “Vatican Catholics”. Given that they’re still in the Middle Ages, they should call themselves “Papal States Catholics”.

  • pappyvet

    Well if I could create one in George Clooney’s image and for Goddess ,hmm.Sigourney Weaver would do nicely.

  • pappyvet

    I would say heap the cheese and bacon on and double up on the Mayo.

  • pappyvet

    There is a familiar old Christian song that assures us that :They will know we are Christians by our love.’


    “The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.” Rev. Pat Robertson

    “Am I all about hate? No I’m sure I’m more about love than I am hate,” Anderson said. “I do hate homosexuals and if hating homosexuals makes our church a hate group then that’s what we are.”
    Rev.Dennis Terry

    Just to tap a couple of quotes out of many.

    And how about those Christian Identity groups?

    11th Hour Remnant Messenger

    Abundant Life Fellowship

    America’s Promise Ministries

    By Yahweh’s Design

    Christian Identity Church – Aryan Nations

    Christ’s Gospel Fellowship

    Church of Jesus Christ (Arkansas)

    Church of Jesus Christ Christian, Aryan Nations of Missouri

    Church of the Sons of YHWH

    Church of True Israel

    Covenant People’s Ministry
    Just oozing with love one and all right?
    And lets not forget the Westboro Baptist Church. Swell bunch.
    Now , let me see a news conference where “Christian” leaders come out in public and denounce people like this. I’m waiting……….still waiting.

  • samiinh

    Mother always said you should only speak good of the dead, so when Billy Graham dies, I plan to say, Good. Too bad Franklin will be around awhile.

  • I’ll bring the popcorn and beer.

  • Ain’t that the truth. I’ve been trying, unsuccessfully, to create a god in Ben Cohen’s image. Now that would be heaven.

  • Mark_in_MN

    Franklyn Graham has forgotten the numerous times the Bible speaks of God changing his mind, and even repenting of the evil he had planed to do. Literally, that’s what the actual Hebrew says in Jonah, for example. The prophet Jonah goes into the great city of Nineveh and half-heartedly calls them to repent. The city and even the cows respond with sincere repentance (which puts Johan out to no end), and God repents of the evil he had planed to do and would no longer destroy that great city with its thousands of people and many cows.

  • And that polyester blend is a killer.

  • This is particularly true of Black Baptists, whose ‘down low’ denial flies in the face that it’s population now has the highest rate of HIV.

  • Mark_in_MN

    I think that’s true of far too many religious people, but it isn’t true for all of them. The more people cling to a single framework, and ideological version of Christianity, a tightly sprung version of “the truth” the more their religiousness is about fear. Those who are more connected to hope or love tend to be much more open to questions rather than tightly controlled by predetermined answers, much more likely to be seeking than pushing, much more loosely wound.

  • There is no more vile a pit of inequity and heresy than the Southern Baptists… worse than Mormons, worse than Vatican Catholics.

  • Mark_in_MN

    One thing that’s clear about Revelation is that the end-times obsessed who try to pick the Apocalypse apart and devise keys to unlocking is supposed secrets always end up doing a cut and paste job on the text, rearranging the elements to suit their time lines or the timelines of people like John Darby, C. I. Scofield, Hal Lindsay, etc.

  • Mark_in_MN

    Are you sure that really narrows it? What if being a “true believer” is a rather broad category, or one that’s inclusive rather than exclusive? That’s not what the conservative, fundamentalist, evangelical, etc. types think, but maybe it isn’t actually so narrowly drawn.

  • cole3244

    ah yes good ole religion, a little love and a lot of hate and have a happy xmas.

  • Mark_in_MN

    The concept of heresy and apostasy were very much in the mix long before Nicea. Ireneaus wrote Adversus Haereses a century and a half before the Council took place. Texts in the New Testament mention false teachers or teachings, and show a concern about keeping believers in the faith (which would be a concern about apostasy and heresy, even if neither word was used or the concepts not as fully or formally developed). In the century before Ireneaus other early Christian writers were writing about what amounts to apostasy or praising those who did not fall away from the faith in times of persecution or trouble. The concepts of heresy and apostasy certainly weren’t introduced or invented at the Council of Nicea. Christianity may have been more loosely defined and more diverse before that era (and would hardly settle down into a single Orthodoxy, if Christianity ever actually did, for quite some time, noting that there were many important Ecumenical Councils to follow, and much history, doctrinal development, and doctrinal disputes to follow).

  • Monoceros Forth

    It just seems a little odd to me, faulting Constantine for doing that very natural thing that has been done throughout the ages whenever there have been large masses of people aflame with passion for a common interest, whether salvation or slide-rule collecting: renting out some rooms and holding a convention.

  • woodroad34


  • Monoceros Forth

    Yeah, whatever. I daresay that if anything is going to do more lasting damage to the cause of right-wing Christianity in this country, it’s this increasingly monomaniacal obsession with sexual decorum to the exclusion of almost everything else. The nation and its citizens are hurting, bleeding from a thousand wounds, and yet the only thing that seems to get our self-appointed moral leaders’ blood up–the only thing that calls forth our latter-day Ezekiels and Jeremiahs to inspire the people with their “Biblical values”–is fear that someone’s not being punished for having the wrong sort of sex.

  • Indigo

    Exactly the way our modern day religious crackpots would like it.

  • Aye… and it was Nicea that introduced the concepts of heresy and apostasy, both punishable by imprisonment, torture and sometimes horrible death.

  • Hell, he’s not worth the expense. Just hit the McDonald’s drive-thru and buy him a cheeseburger. Bacon optional.

    Then while he’s eating, ask him why he indulges in the blasphemy of cutting his hair and beard and going around with his head uncovered.

  • Indigo

    Constantine was a politician and an opportunist. Theodosius later consolidated what Constantine initiated and many others also had their hands in that pie, it was most likely profitable. But it was Constantine that called (forced?) the First Council of Nicea in 325 C.E. to consolidate whatever it is that that was which now passes for “Christianity.” My point being that the whole endeavor is a socio-political construct.

  • I know what you mean. The older I’ve grown, the more I’ve come to realize how much of religion isn’t motivated by hope or love, but by fear. Mostly fear of death, but also fear of meaninglessness. Thus there’s this near overwhelming desire to create within the framework of the universe a being — a deity — who has a persona and is human-like enough to be begged and persuaded.

  • You have a point there.

  • Chef Kowalski

    One question I’d like Franklin Graham to answer is: “If God so disapproves of gay people, why did he make so many of us?” I presume David Gregory didn’t ask that one because there may not have been enough mops at NBC to clean up after Franklin head exploded while trying to think of an answer.

  • Monoceros Forth

    And while we’re at it, let’s keep in mind that the Roman Catholic Church is an invention of the Emperor Constantine to secure an obedient state church.

    Is that the case? I thought the “Donation of Constantine” in which the Emperor supposedly conferred authority on the papacy was a forgery. He himself was an Arian and thus at odds with the emerging orthodoxy. Surely Theodosius the Great is the real villain of this story.

  • Indigo

    Tibetan Buddhism makes good sense on the question of deities, understanding them as projections arising from our own minds. That’s makes sense to me even though understanding that fact and actively dissolving the deity-fixation can be uncomfortable for some people.

  • mamazboy

    Who cares what this asshole says? It’s funny to see these increasingly marginalized bigots clinging to their old narratives. History is leaving them behind, happily. Progress rules now!

  • Indigo

    Okay, you got me laughing on that one!

  • Indigo

    And while we’re at it, let’s keep in mind that the Roman Catholic Church is an invention of the Emperor Constantine to secure an obedient state church. It worked remarkably well and like the aqueducts, even if they’re partly in ruins, they’re still standing.

  • Monoceros Forth

    There’s something that Revelations is clear on?

  • Max_1

    I’ll buy Mr Graham a nice Lobster dinner and listen to his explaination as to how he’s not violating Biblical law…

  • Max_1

    Shorter Graham:
    “My Jesus will smite your Jesus”

  • Making it up as they go along. That’s all it ever has been. But for anyone who has actually bothered to take the time to read the Bible, and actually believes, God isn’t going to accept that you were “close” in your personal interpretation. Revelations is pretty clear that only one of the countless factions of the Abrahamic religions can possibly be correct – and all the rest are doomed. Maybe it’s was even a faction that has already been driven to extinction. One thing is for certain, it isn’t any of the petty hatemongering that Graham is involved with.

  • Albert Ross

    He’s trying to fill his daddy’s shoes once he removes them from daddy’s mouth.

  • Fuck this fucking fuckety fuck asshole. I am Sooooooo fucking tired of hearing everybody’s fucking opinion of fucking gay people. Really? Go fucking fuckety fuck yourselves!

  • timncguy

    Was it good ole David Gregory talking with him on Meet the Press? I hesitate to use the phrase “questioning him”. Because, we all know that David doesn’t feel it is his job to point out any errors or inconsistencies with anything his guests say on Meet the Press.

  • KarenJ

    Guess which hateful witch is good friends with Franklin Graham as well as Phil Robertson the camo bigot from Louisiana? Yeah, She Who Is The Personification of The Tower of Babel — Sarah Palin.

  • As I’ve often remarked: Humans have an almost obsessive tendency to create deities in our own image.

    Including our prejudices, foibles, and self-justifications for outrageous behavior. It’s the ultimate ‘appeal to authority.’

  • MyrddinWilt

    God can do anything except learn from experience and change his mind.

    If man was created in God’s image then God must logically be as flawed as man. In fact of course, Man has always created God in his image which is why God has changed so much over time. Ugly brutal societies on the verge of starvation invented ugly brutal Gods like Saturn and Jupiter and Baal.

    Any God who needs a bigot like Franklin Graham is a God I can’t believe in. It is too ridiculous.

    The establishment still doesn’t understand that the Internet brings accountability to everyone in authority. And that includes God. ‘Becos God sez so’ was always a pathetic argument but it is an argument that they have managed to protect from examination but throwing a monumental panty-twist whenever someone points that out. In the Internet age everyone is accountable, even God.

  • UncleBucky

    Oh, dear, this fellow’s beyond his sell-by date…

  • They are right: God’s word does not change. What does change is the errant human interpretation of His word! That is my conclusion after five times through the Reformation. Now I’m searching through the early years and don’t expect any conclusion for a while. What is ignored is “Judge not lest ye be judged.”, an ignorance typical of any religious bigot.

  • S1AMER

    Franklin Graham is a vile little man.

    And when I say “little,” I’m not referring to his body size, but to the depth and breadth of his soul.

  • Well, let’s not forget the heresy of the Baptist schism itself, which didn’t exist until the early 1600s, when all kinds of offshoots were breaking away from the Roman Catholic Church.

    Didn’t “God” insist that the rock of his Church on Earth was Peter?

    I mean, really, when you look at the Wiki entry for the various offshoots of Protestantism around 1600 or so, it’s like everybody and his cousin was starting up a variant Christian religion — some mildly reform-ish, others quite radical.

    Then there’s the fact the Baptists held to John Smyth’s tract indicating that Catholics bore the Mark of the Beast — while Smyth himself actually, towards the end of his life, tried to become a Mennonite. Earlier, he referred to himself as a Separatist and a Puritan.

    So it’s a great big mess there.

  • FUFatherEisenman

    Graham, the elder and the younger, Phil Robertson, Pat Robertson and all their ilk are all charlatans. They are in it for the money and they have no concern for the elderly widow (and all the poor rednecks) that skips a meal so she can send in her tithe so they will say a prayer for her. If these ass wipes truly believed in their god, they will be burning in his fires of hell for eternity.

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