27 GOP Senators vote to disapprove of own vote to raise debt ceiling

The things you learn watching Stephen Colbert.  27 Republican Senators voted this week to condemn their own votes in favor of raising the debt ceiling and saving the country from default, and a worldwide economic catastrophe.

Apparently, as part of the deal to avert a default on the national debt a few weeks ago, Republicans demanded that the Senate hold a second vote, a few weeks later, in which Republican Senators could publicly disapprove of the deal they just voted for.

The intent, of course, is to trick GOP primary and general election voters into thinking that Republican Senators  voted against the debt ceiling deal, when in reality they voted for it.

debt-ceiling-vote

Sadly, this is rather typical behavior for the Hill, and particularly among Republicans. Senators and House members are always looking for ways to negate their real position, permitting them to be everything to everyone.

When I worked in the Senate, it was common practice to tell constituents that you “cosponsored” legislation that you never intended to vote for. “Cosponsoring” is a symbolic way of voicing your support for legislation, short of actually voting for it, and with no requirement to actually support the bill when it comes up for a vote. Thus, members of Congress would “cosponsor” something, but not actually vote for it – enabling them to pick and choose their answers for various constituents. If you like the bill, they tell you they cosponsored it. If you don’t like the bill, they tell you they voted against it.

Trusting that most Americans don’t understand the arcane workings of the Congress, the 27 Republican Senators who voted for the debt ceiling increase are going to tell constituents, come the next election, that they voted against the budget deal. And they did.  In a non-binding resolution, sure – but they won’t tell you that.  They’ll simply say “what do you mean I supported the debt ceiling increase?  I’m on the record, on October 29, opposing the debt ceiling deal.”  And you the constituent will dutifully scratch your head all confused.

It’s not about the truth.  As I’ve written before, the Republicans have learned that they do far better in the polls when they lie.  If voters new the truth about Obamacare (that it actually does lower prices for a lot of people), the stimulus (that it saved millions of jobs and averted a depression), about climate change (it’s real, and we caused it), and about President Obama (neither commie nor Kenyan), they’d support the Republican position and party even less than the meager amount they do now.

So, Republicans lie.  Because GOP voters can’t handle the truth.

My favorite GOP hypocrisy story was the time in the early 1990s when I was riding up the elevator to the Senate office where I worked. The elevator door opens to let someone out, and I see a well-known moderate Republican northeastern Senator scamper by with aides in tow.  One aide earnestly tells the Senator, just as my elevator door is about to close: “Remember, Senator, today you’re pro-choice.”

And today they’re pro-shutdown, once again.


Follow me on Twitter: @aravosis | @americablog | @americabloggay | Facebook | Google+ | LinkedIn. John Aravosis is the editor of AMERICAblog, which he founded in 2004. He has a joint law degree (JD) and masters in Foreign Service from Georgetown (1989); and worked in the US Senate, World Bank, Children's Defense Fund, and as a stringer for the Economist. Frequent TV pundit: O'Reilly Factor, Hardball, World News Tonight, Nightline & Reliable Sources. Bio, .

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  • Amanda Caleb

    After hearing that 27 Republican senators voted to “disapprover” their own votes to raise the debt ceiling, Stephen Colbert is starting to think that the Grand Old Party “may not be bipartisan, but they may be bipolar.

    Personal Business Loans

  • Milo_Bloom

    …and I hope when I leave you find another s**ker to feed, shelter and clothe you. :-)

  • Jimmy R

    Happy for all of us. Here’s hoping you get to retire…and leave the country…very very soon.

  • Milo_Bloom

    I’m glad you feel things are cleared but, however your interpretation of my answer appears to be, again, completely wrong.

    Keep trying! I have faith in you!

  • KingCranky

    In other words, your own standards are too tough for you to abide.

    Thanks for clearing that up.

  • Milo_Bloom

    LOL, I agree wholeheartedly, but I have a soft spot for the woman I love, and she has only ever lived in the cesspool we call the Golden State. She doesn’t know any better. She’s slowly starting to see the light, and I hope to have us out of state in a few years.

    Interestingly enough, we have agreed on retirement away from this oppressive government. We have our retirement home already acquired in a nice country far from these shores. So, there is a happy ending, just waiting to see how patient I will have to be ;-)

  • Whitewitch

    Wow – you should move.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Actually let’s break those down. Fire is mediocre here, and I believe paid for by property taxes in our area. Police show up after the fact to write reports and ask you if you have insurance, so I also have to pay for alarms, firearms, etc. EMT’s are private. The schools are so bad that I have to send my children to private schools, which of course I pay for in addition to the taxes for the seat they fail to occupy in the government school. Recreational facilities (that you’d actually go to) charge for the service.

    Shall I go on?

    Being against the wars might be the only point on which we agree.

    Again, your government fails miserably, but continues to take from working Americans.

  • Whitewitch

    Sorry you have that experience. Sorry you can see any services being provided to you by the government for your benefit. I guess in No California they no longer have Fire and EMT Service, no schools for the children to attend – guess they have closed all those parks and recreation facilities as well.

    So glad I am in So Cal where we have all those things and more – much much more….

    Plus I believe there are two wars (oh wait only one now supposedly) which the politicians are approving and paying for – which comes from our taxes as well (which I would rather not pay for – believe me).

    Nice try at the glass have full thing.

    P.S. I walk to work everyday! Maybe that is why I have a sunny disposition (grin).

  • Milo_Bloom

    You’re starting to ramble a little, dear.

    Perhaps in Southern California the roads have dramatically improved in the two years since I last visited, but up here they are poor; not worth what we pay. That’s been my ongoing point.

    Actually I do walk to work when I can. I never considered it, but its certainly less wear and tear on my body and truck than taking the government roads (see? glass 1/2 full!) None the less, if they are going to just take our taxes without providing services, I’d just as soon keep the money.

  • Whitewitch

    Not just talking about the roads in my neighborhood…talking about the roads in most of Southern California….I don’t think you know poor roads was my point in the previous post. Just like people complaint about how bad traffic is – compared to what walking to work? Weird, unhappy people are sad.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Actually it doesn’t, though I can see where the desperate nature of your demands upon our children might make you feel better about your greed to think so.

  • Milo_Bloom

    None of your numbers did match the CBO’s website (which is the link). You posting was incorrect. Again, I suggest you actually look up the figures.

  • Milo_Bloom

    I use them only because driving through our neighbors yards would be rude. I also live in California; odd that we’d have such a disparity. Perhaps your councilman is a neighbor? ;-)

    The rest of us have pretty poor roads, but they do continue to take our money.

    As for 1/2 empty, 1/2 full, you might be right: Sure the oppression stinks, but how else would we be able to have revolution? That better?

  • pappyvet

    The one that starves today is already starving.
    Well that pretty much sums up your tale. Most enlightening. Good bye

  • FanOfTravel

    Well silo,I’m correct in the fact that a huge portion of the 2009 budget was bush number two and the fiscal year runs from Oct 1st thur Sept 30th,can you not read? Your link showed nothing of the sort

  • Whitewitch

    So you do use “government” created, maintained and funded roads…ahhh I see….and you complain that they are not maintained or improved…so far I have not seen you say one nice thing about anything. I live in California and our roads are very nice and well maintained…I did live in DC for about 17 years and the roads there were quite awful…but then then have pretty harsh weather – lots of rain, snow and heat…so I am thinking although they probably spend as much for road maintenance as we do here that it is harder to “keep them up”. So I try to look at life as a glass half full kind of thing – rather than a glass half empty situation. You might try that – it makes life a little more bearable.

  • Milo_Bloom

    It would appear the only thing you have correct in your little screed is that the fiscal year runs from Oct. to Sept. I took a look at the CBO’s website, none of their numbers bear any relation to the ones you’ve provided. Take a look: http://cbo.gov

  • Milo_Bloom

    The roads are I pay quite a bit for and nothing is done to maintain or improve them.

  • http://www.newmillgay.com/ The_Fixer

    When talking about budgets, spending and taxation, perhaps it might be apropos to remember a few things.

    First, debt is a cumulative thing, and even though spending might go down, debt can still go up. Remember also how we got that debt.

    The bulk of debt came from the wars and the boom in the security apparatus since 9/11. It should be noted that the security apparatus we have in place now may have been able to catch bin Laden, but it really wasn’t necessary; we had advance warning of the plot – warning provided by our old security apparatus – that was ignored. This new Patriot Act resulted in the biggest real intrusion of government into our lives ever, without a corresponding increase in effectiveness, and at no small expense. Top that all off with the normal and wasteful cost of war, and we got a real hum-dinger of a debt.

    This debt did not come from the education department, nor social programs and it did not come the normal government services that keep American society more-or-less humming along. I read a plea to slash government spending across the board by 50%. This meat-cleaver approach toward solving the problem is illogical. It ignores waste and the most inefficient parts of government – Defense. It may make sense to reduce defense spending by 50% – I’m not settled on that being a viable figure, it’s used for example. If it makes sense to do it in the Defense Department, it’s not justification for doing it in, say, the Commerce department, the FDA and other agencies. The FDA does food inspection; do we really want an already underfunded agency to make do with a sharp reduction in food safety inspectors? How about the EPA, do we want factories and vehicles poisoning our air? Do we want the National Weather Service that we all depend on to slash the number of staff? I think not – we need to eat good food, breathe clean air and we have farmers who depend on weather forecasters. But we sure can do with a lot less of the Armed Forces losing track of pallets full of cash. Like it or not, the government provides services that we need in daily life. Not all government activity is wasteful, let alone the cause of our debt. Just some of it.

    It is a fact that there is a correlation between higher taxation on the wealthy and positive economic growth. One may not be causative of the other, but the relationship is there. I keep hearing the plea for tax equality across-the-board. It’s been said that it’s fair if everyone pays the same tax rate, it’s tax equality. But let’s turn that around and talk burden. I get the same governmental benefits as a wealthy person does from my tax dollar – government services like the FAA, FDA, Commerce and yes, the Education Department, among other agencies. However, as I make less than a wealthy person, my burden is higher. That is the reasoning behind the Progressive Tax System, an attempt to equalize burden.

    It is part of a social compact that we have in America. You pay according to your means. A wealthy person has the means to pay more to help support the government because it’s less of a burden for that person. We all throw this money in a kitty and spend it on governmental services. Sometimes, we even have to do things like support those who have various problems like poverty and mental illness. It’s part of the American ethic to care for those less fortunate than us. And it makes good sense as people with problems will make them your problems if you aren’t proactive. Being proactive means the government is spending money – which, by the way, makes its way back out into circulation.

    Charity is all fine and good, and in most cases very helpful. However, even the biggest charity does not have the means to help everyone. Additionally, they can’t truly fix the problems that cause them to exist, The government very often does. That doesn’t mean government should do everything. But to not make an effort to alleviate the suffering of others when one is able can only be described as turdish. I might add, it also goes against the presumed traditions that those who wish to inject religion into government, claiming that this is a “Christian Nation.”

    It’s been proven before that strategic government investment in the economy does pay dividends in the form of greater economic activity, thus, greater tax revenue. Clinton proved that, although there were problems with his approach. But the basic principle stands: the increase in economic activity bringing in more tax revenue (provided that we actually meaningfully tax corporations) at one time gave us a budget surplus that allowed us to pay down the debt. Until Bush II kinda shot that all to hell. In addition to crazy spending, he reduced the upper tax rates. We found ourself not only in deficit spending territory because spending was up and revenues down, but in greater debt because the wars were kept out of the formal budget, but still resulted in debt.

    The only sensible way of doing paying down the debt is through increased tax revenue in addition to sensible cost reduction. As both a fair-burden point and from the point of practicality, additional revenue has come from wealthy individuals and corporations. After all, poor people can’t pay more.

    Social programs have to continue, not only from a standpoint of then being what humans of conscience do, but from a practical standpoint; it puts money in the economy.

    I hear a lot of complaining about the government printing money at will from the Libertarians. They have been forced to; wealthy individuals and corporations are hoarding all of the money, they aren’t spending it. Corporate profits and cash reserves are the highest in history; we have the highest percentage of wealth held by the fewest proportion of individuals in history. Any time you effectively pull money out of circulation, you have to print more. It’s really quite simple. Of course that doesn’t make it desirable, it’s just the way it happened. the only way to stop that is to reverse the mechanism that made it happen.

    I think that one of the “dirty little secrets” of government is that, in addition to providing services, it by nature is a wealth redistribution mechanism. Why that isn’t accepted as a matter of course is beyond me. That may not be its motivation to start with; however, it’s an unavoidable result of it doing these other things. The government spends money which goes back Into the hands of citizens and companies in the course of providing services. Lately, it’s been distributing wealth – cash, capital, whatever you want to call money – upward.

    A reconfiguring of government has to take place. This can’t go on forever, and no amount of reduced spending is going to fix this. We’re still gonna have debt even if we stop government spending altogether. And choking government is just plain stupid and counterproductive.

    A lot of these economic problems are going to make repeat appearances as long as we have an economic system centered on constant growth (which I might add, is not sustainable). We have a burgeoning world-wide population demanding resources to live. Add to that, discoveries and inventions from the medical science field are prolonging the lives of the world’s citizens. This is the real train wreck of catastrophic proportions, not the budget or the debt. Those trends can often be reversed with proper spending and proper revenues, and can often be done by one president in two terms.

    The real problems of population, environmental quality and resource scarcity are far longer-ranging and will take a 100-year plan to fix. As long as you have people F’n up the works like you have had with a series of right-wing elected officials, we’re not gonna be able to pull it off. That’s the coming catastrophe. It’ll take a while to get here, and it won’t be pretty when it comes.

  • FanOfTravel

    Quit listening to fox & fools!! The 2009 budget was mostly bush number two’s,the 2009 fiscal year runs ran from Oct 1 2008 thur Sept 30 2009 and was for 1.413 trillion. The 2010 and 2011 were 1.3 trillion each year,the 2012 declined a little to 1.1 trillion and 2013 is estimated by the CBO to be 642 billion. Which is less then half of his 2010 budget. Quit parroting fox,rush,glen,hannidioty…….. Talking points

  • Whitewitch

    Sorry had to get back to work….what roads are you driving on now…all privately owed roads…and it is great that you volunteer and give to charity but many don’t. So take care and have a good one.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    :-)

  • Milo_Bloom

    I seem to have struck a nerve at the idea that one’s opinion of the gravity of the situation can be tied to their level of government dependence. However, it appears we will have to agree to disagree. A good evening to you, too.

  • Peter Bode

    You picked one part of the argument on which to relaunch your fact deprived diatribe. I note that you have no taste for the rest of it…nor (after several invitations to do so) have you any idea how to sustain your argument with historical evidence. Wishing you a good evening.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Not really; at one point, they were speaking of raising taxes on the rich. I assumed only that they are not rich.

    I guess you could ask them if you’d like. Perhaps they will supply you a 1040 with which to protest.

  • Milo_Bloom

    You are struggling soo hard to make the simple complicated. You cannot borrow forever.

    You know, it occurs to me that a person like me, who is provided very little from the government, has very little emotional need to concoct scenarios that everything is alright. On the other hand…

  • KingCranky

    Perhaps best not to whine about “cite where I said otherwise” when you played the “You can talk about raising taxes (on people other than yourself, of course)” blather yourself.

    Or does “cite where I said otherwise” only apply to others, not yourself?

  • Milo_Bloom

    “Finally, are you really arguing that a government debt of $16,736 would be unsustainable given the size of the current economy?”

    $16,736? No, that would be fine. Heck, I can pay that off today. The problem is that the debt is $16,736 billion.

    Far bigger number. ;-)

    I would argue that being that the entire GDP of the country would not pay it off at this point, and it has historically risen just about every year, that no, we can’t pay it off. Or at the very least won’t. Paying off the debt doesn’t win you votes, after all.

    The real question will be which aspect does us in. When we finally can’t borrow any more? When we have to choose between debt and the few functions the government actually needs to perform? Or will it be when all the free loaders are informed that the pantry is bare? Then the real excitement starts!

    You know, it occurs to me that a person like me, who is provided very little from the government, has very little emotional need to concoct scenarios that everything is alright. On the other hand…

  • Peter Bode

    Alternatively, you can show me an example of a country which has ceased to exist as a political entity due to debt levels alone. I’d be keen to see that. I’m eyeing up opportunities to send in the bailliffs you understand :)

  • Peter Bode

    Ok then, given that you understand (or claim to) that there is a difference between managing a kitchen table economyy and managing a national economy…what “commen sense principles” are you referring to? I’ll make it easy for you: at what percentage of GDP doed debt become unsustainable to the point where it constrains economic growth? Please show your work.

  • Peter Bode

    That is a most articulate way of avoiding the argument. So there is not a crisis of debt? Why all the hysteria then? Why devote your life to stalking posts on news blogs? So, can I take it it that you don’t believe that the number in itself is a problem?
    It comes down to this. The number is historically large…as is GDP…as is the stock market indicator. The economy (despite the crash) is larger than it was during Reagan’s presidency, than during Clinton’s and during Bush Junior’s. So I ask again….what is it about this number which you believe calls for a complete reset of fiscal policy?
    Finally, are you really arguing that a government debt of $16,736 would be unsustainable given the size of the current economy?

  • Milo_Bloom

    No, you’ve still got it wrong. You see, I have no problem helping people: as my distain for the government’s abuse of the people has grown, I’ve also increased my charity and volunteering. With you it’s “someone else, or something else” with me it’s personal.

    Roads? You’re kidding, right? The government stopped suppling roads about the time they figured out they could just give my taxes away to their chorines (and themselves) without providing roads. Giving them more money just makes the chorines richer… it doesn’t provide roads or services. Better to do without, or help ones’ self.

    As for a natural disaster, check out the last few and see who fared better: communities that helped themselves, or those that waited for the government.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Common sense.

  • Milo_Bloom

    First of all, I have a pet peeve about people putting words in my mouth: Where did I say, “Crisis?” You, on the other hand, have used it twice. Just keeping you honest!

    “Dark art.” What an excuse for ignoring common sense! The number $16,738 billion is critical because it is huge. Frankly, it could be $16,736 or $16,740 and we’d be in the same situation: in debt to our eyeballs. It goes up every day of every year and we have no plan to pay that money back. You can call it whatever you like, jazz it up with “Dark Art” (is he Darth Vader’s cousin?) but it’s still a preposterous number.

    You are most likely correct about precedence, since I doubt any country has hit that level of debt in history and survived without a revolution. However, I don’t think you would have too much trouble finding examples of the consequences of reckless spending and borrowing without the ability to pay for such expenditures.

  • Whitewitch

    It is too, it is too, it is too, it is too…okay it isn’t.

  • Whitewitch

    I think that is exactly what I implied about your philosphy…so let me be clearer…you are a no government person – super. You believe we should not have the government helping its people – super. You believe “someone else, or something else” will help people – super.

    Now when you need help, or need a new road, or recovery from a natural disaster – let me know how that works for you. Until then – you are on your own eh – Great!!!

  • Peter Bode

    Specifically which principles are you applying in making your argument?

  • Peter Bode

    That does not necessarily follow where strong growth follows a short period of such deficit spending. You say there is a crisis. All I ask is that you show some historical precedent (from anywhere in the world at any time) to support your hypothesis that this is a critical number.. Economics of the macro variety is a dark art and there is no way in the world that any credible economist of the right wing and/or libertarian variety would make this argumenty without reference to either historical precedent or numercial ranges as per GDP.

  • Milo_Bloom

    I’m aware, fascinating book. But that line goes a long way toward defining his views, does it not?

    So, to proceed, Your “progressive” tax in conjunction with social programs, is the essence of “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need,” correct?

  • trinu

    You apparently do not know that Marx wrote an entire manifesto, not just one sentence. Taxing the rich at the same rate as the middle class is not communism. In fact a graduated income tax formed the backbone of USA fiscal policy at the height of the Cold War.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Actually it would appear you are the one who doesn’t understand the word. Let’s see: Your “progressive” tax in conjunction with social programs, is the essence of “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need,” correct?

  • trinu

    That’s not Marxism. Implementing the Buffett rule, making the superrich pay the same tax rate as the middle class would still leave the superrich with more money. Heck, even taxing the superrich at Eisenhower levels would leave them with more money than the middle class. Also your use of the word, “Marxist,” shows you don’t know what it means.

  • Milo_Bloom

    No, because you can prevent a person from starving tomorrow. The one that starves today is already starving. Huge difference.

    Your government has one heck of a problem, that’s for sure. Step one is to stop continuing to spend money we don’t have. Until we do that, no other course of action toward paying it will make even a tiny dent.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Of course not. However, there are principles that apply to both.

  • Milo_Bloom

    You are suggesting the application of an “intellectual construct” where none is necessary. It’s common sense. If you are borrowing 100% of the GDP you’ve setup a situation that would be impossible to pay back. Unless your plan is never to pay our debts.

  • pappyvet

    Like I said,a starving person today is just as bad as a starving person tomorrow.
    So what’s your solution? Who gets to pay? The drunken sailors lef their tab on the bar floor. And do not presume to tell me what I am willing to pay for or how much.Tnat is simply spreading an accepted mythology.

  • Peter Bode

    Question: Does macro economics work on the same principle as micro economics?

  • Peter Bode

    Ok, seeing as you are so bothered by this number, perhaps you can tell us what specific intellectual construct tells you that this is out of control. Show us some evidence in terms of percentage of GDP or any other historical instance you care to quote from that indicates that this debt represents a crisis which will tip the economy over the edge. Then we can have a discussion about that.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Fine. Who pays the higher dollar amount?

    I know you are trying to use idea that the redistribution of wealth is appropriate, but it isn’t. If you earn the money, it should belong to you. If we choose to support the government, it should be even, not a Marxist tool. That simple.

    Even Mr. Obama tells us that “everyone should have skin in the game.”

  • trinu

    The superrich pay 15% of their income (before tax breaks/deductions) in taxes, thanks to the capital gains tax. The middle class pay 28-35% of their income in taxes.

  • Milo_Bloom

    I accept your surrender.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Ahh… the intellectual argument of the left. When your lack of an argument becomes apparent…

  • Milo_Bloom

    It seems with your name calling and wild accusations, you are starting to realize your lack of an argument.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Wrong. You are too incompetent at trolling to bother with anymore. Bye

  • Milo_Bloom

    Actually I believe he called me a “Tea Bagger.” The thread is getting quite long.

    It always entertains me how quickly you folks turn to name calling as your arguments fall apart.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Keep polishing that point on your head and one day you will realize it is a turd.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Actually it isn’t. The rich do pay the vast majority of tax dollars. You can try to argue “From each according to their means…” but the fact that the rich pay the vast majority of taxes remains true.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Getting a little inchoate Milo Petite. Are you drinking?

  • Milo_Bloom

    Sorry to disappoint. Considering the poor attempts I’ve seen so far on this forum, I shall consider the source from which the critique comes. ;-)

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    “Repetition is not confirmation of fact” is name calling? Nah, sorry. This is name calling: assh*ole

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Iz 1 for the books. :-)

  • Milo_Bloom

    Nope. I am one of the people you depend on, having far more taken from me than the government provides. I’m ok with them not providing, frankly the quality is poor on the best day, but the taking is getting irritating.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    I suspect you are not that older. Your conversation is quite immature and repetitious—-not really up to serious troll level.

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    That’s a mis-characterization of the situation, and disingenuous as well.

    Here’s some light reading for you:
    http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tax-rates#

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    You are too. We need a good laugh here.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    I wouldn’t know, are you.

  • Milo_Bloom

    I’m absolutely sympathetic to the plight of fellow humans. My donations and volunteering have increased exponentially as I’ve gotten older and realized that people need real help, not government dependence.

    I don’t feel sorry for you, you’ve made your bed. Lie in it.

  • Milo_Bloom

    …and yet you persist! ;-)

    I assume by “disqualifies you from serious conversation” you mean “doesn’t want us to take his paycheck and doesn’t agree with our government-dependent lifestyle?”

    You guys are fun!

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Rosebud

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Exactly, the right has just cut the food stamp budget to nearly 50 million Americans, most of whom are children and the working poor.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Hide nothing; how would that help? Saving responsibly and planning for an off-shore retirement seem more prudent. :-)

    Will you be waiting around for Social Security? Good luck with that!

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    Many of us have become more empathetic and sympathetic to the plight of our fellow humans as we’ve grown older, rather than less. I feel sorry for you.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Ahh.. because I believe in earning what I purchase? Not borrowing money I cannot pay back? Spending responsibly and saving for emergencies?

    You’re right… I am soooo rudimentary, but I am not the one running around looking for a handout or demanding the government take from others to feed my sloth, now am I?

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    rotfl

  • Milo_Bloom

    Becca already surrendered. I even accepted, kind fellow that I am.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Milo, we could care less who are you. All we see are the dropping you leave behind and that disqualifies you from serious conversation.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Hardly; wasn’t he the one that gave up and started calling me names? Or could not answer to when we’d be out of control or reckless with spending, but refused to answer if $16,738 billion was it?

    Amusing definition of victory.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Neither is name calling but here we are, and my repeated fact remains correct.

  • Milo_Bloom

    You are incorrect.

    Spend nothing on government; that is my “approach.” It’s a poor way to help others because it must take for itself off the top and leave only crumbs for others.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    “Well my dear” Henny Penny, perhaps you should stop squawking and hide before the sky falls.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Your apology is accepted. Milo is a dear character; I remain a huge Bloom County fan and miss it every day. Remember, I was not always a conservative; I learned as I moved through life.

  • Whitewitch

    You know Bill – I suspect that you are right about them letting Obama have the election…they would not want to be having to deal with the real facts of the economy – it is so much easier to be the devil’s advocate rather than the one having to actually fix anything.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    It is rather clear that your knowledge of economics is rather rudimentary, so it is best to listen and gain some solid information from some of the more knowledgeable commentators here.

  • http://poodyheads.wordpress.com/ Daddy Bear

    Iz 2…Iz 2…Iz 2…so there!
    :-P

  • Whitewitch

    I have been reading your posts from the top and your approach is quite simple really – although quite horrific. Spend nothing on no one – and those that can’t get will have to starve (or perhaps preferably die and reduce the surplus population).

    I am an old woman and can see the value in education, feeding children and caring for those who can not care for themselves…I also pay taxes and actually although they are high am certain that many pay less taxes than I would make more than I and that is patently unfair.

    I am sorry that your heart has hardened as you got older – it seems to be the case with many in my generation…sad really. I think I will keep my heart as it is and stay a bleeding-heart liberal verging on commie – thank you. And as for you…I hope you never need compassion – for you will not know what it looks like.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Are you capable of understanding the fact the the overall debt has risen from $10,025 billion to $16,738 billion just during Mr. Obama’s term? Or that we are now borrowing 100% of GDP?

    Haven’t tried that one, but this one is very entertaining. I feel a little like a 6th grader visiting the kindergarden class for the day! ;-)

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    Please accept my deepest apologies for initially misidentifying you as the typical breed of GOP authoritarian-conservative troll we usually get around here, as opposed to an anarchist libertarian-conservative troll.

    You see, you confused me with your ‘Milo_Bloom’ pseudonym, because he’s well known among Bloom County fans as a proud graduate of the “Rupert Murdoch School of Exuberant Journalism.”

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Repetition is not confirmation of fact.

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    Try reading Sun tzu. Nicho has just kicked your sorry ass around the block.

  • Milo_Bloom

    And you can show me where the rich don’t pay the vast majority of tax dollars?

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    “What we need” What we need is for the intellectually sound to pour salt on the tails of dilettante libertarians and Becca has succeeded in that task.

  • Milo_Bloom

    LOL, you are the one flinging “people like Milo” friend, don’t get all huffy with your “You have no clue who I am” line.

    I’ll save you a seat!

  • http://adgitadiaries.com/ karmanot

    May we remind you that some of the greatest deficits occurred under Gopher Presidents. Do Reagan and Bush Petite ring a bell? Are you capable of understanding the FACT that Obama has lowered the deficit? Go peddle your nonsense over at Breitbart.

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    You make lots and lots of assertions, yet provide not one shred of proof.

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    Funny, in non-libertarian/conservative circles, the ‘old expression’ goes the opposite way.

    p.s. You have no clue whatsoever who I am. Don’t even bother trying.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Well my dear, our country is going to need to face that loan shark someday. You can put it off for awhile, but it only increases the problem.

    Had it occurred to you that if the government borrows money it cannot pay back, perhaps it needs it’s kneecaps broken to learn the lesson?

  • Milo_Bloom

    Please show me where I have ever supported Mr. Obama and Mr. Bush’s wars.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Actually it makes sense, if you leave behind the party line. What conservatives wish to cut is government education. It’s inefficient, it exploits the taxpayer, and an inappropriate tool of indoctrination for a government such as ours to possess. We’d like others to have the same options, but the government system would hardly allow it.

    Your average conservative, therefore, is spending quite a bit to make sure our children get the best possible education while you’d rather throw yours into government schools.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Almost as funny as the left telling us they love “the children” but want the government to pay for the care of their own.

  • Milo_Bloom

    “There is good debt and bad debt.”

    Wow… are you serious? The only kind of debt the United States has is debt they can’t pay back. Yet every day they borrow more. You can talk about raising taxes (on people other than yourself, of course) all you want, but there is no solution until the government stops spending money like a drunken sailor on shore leave.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Kinda makes my point. ;-)

    Don’t worry BeccaM, there’s an old expression that states “if you aren’t a liberal when you are young you have no heart, if you aren’t a conservative when you are old, you have no brain.” I’ve been both; you’ll get there.

  • http://www.americablog.com/ Naja pallida

    An across the board cut makes absolutely no sense at all, and would only serve to drive us further into the ditch. The sequester cut that way, and didn’t help anything, except cut spending purely for the sake of cutting spending. It hurt economic growth, and unnecessarily punished many good, and necessary programs. Such a cut would be nothing but a blunt instrument, breaking the country’s kneecaps as if our debt was held by a mob loan shark.

  • trinu

    It was certainly reckless when Bush poured trillions of dollars into starting a war in Iraq.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Well let’s see. The national debt stands at $16,738 Billion.

    When would you say the spending was “reckless?”

  • Milo_Bloom

    Well let’s see. The national debt stands at $16,738 Billion.

    When would you say it was “out of control?”

  • Milo_Bloom

    I accept your surrender.

  • pappyvet

    There is good debt and bad debt. There are those who pay and those who do not.

    At a rate of 1.8% of GDP, the U.S. has the lowest corporate tax burden of any Western nation, and corporate tax revenue as a percentage of GDP is at historical lows. . So if it were true that the driver of job creation is a lower corporate tax burden, we should be awash in newly created jobs right now which would improve all numbers across the board. “Borrowing and spending recklessly” happened long before the present administration and since austerity has been experimented with in Europe to very low rewards, perhaps different approaches are called for. At 1.4 how much lower should we go? For the benefit of who? To be carried by who? A starving person today is as bad as a starving person tomorrow.

  • nicho

    It’s “out of control” only in your mind — or perhaps in the mind of the people you get your silly talking points from.

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    Enjoy.

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    You and I will never agree. So let’s not bother with this pointless ‘debate.’

  • Milo_Bloom

    Umm… have you actually seen the breakdown of from whom tax money is taken?

  • nicho

    You use the word “recklessly” as if you almost knew what you were talking about. Come back when you have something other than Teabagger talking points.

  • Milo_Bloom

    Well, we all grow up at different speeds. Perhaps you’ll get there one day. ;-)

  • Milo_Bloom

    No, frankly I don’t think that any entity in government should be allowed to spend recklessly. Please cite where I said otherwise.

    I’d be happy to suggest cutting the military; will you support cutting the rest? Let’s go 50% across the board. For starters.

  • Milo_Bloom

    What we need? You’ve got to be kidding. What we need is for people to be able to keep what they’ve earned, not have it taken from them by a wasteful government. What we need is to cut the out of control spending. What we need is for people to accept that if you want something in life, you should be required to earn it.

    The last thing we need is a so-called “more progressive” tax. Now, if you’d like to discuss a just tax, where all people pay an equal percentage and that tax covers only the essential needs of the people from government then I am all ears.

  • trinu

    I should be used to it, but it never ceases to infuriate me when the people who scream “think of the children” are the first to cut funding for education.

  • http://www.americablog.com/ Naja pallida

    The trick is determining which we’re in, tragedy or farce.

  • trinu

    It is a real issue, one which can be easily solved by making the rich pay their fair share of taxes.

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    I’m a liberal. Not an anti-government libertarian.

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    Budgets originate in the House of Representatives. Let’s start there, shall we?

    And enough with the patronizing. I’ve read the post and came to an entirely different conclusion than you did. One that actually pays attention to WHO spent the money in the first place and cut revenues massively.

    Right now, what we need is a return to more responsible and progressive tax rates. Not more anti-growth spending cuts while the country remains in an economic depression.

  • http://www.americablog.com/ Naja pallida

    Congress are the ones who do the spending, and the debt ceiling increase is an authorization to pay back what they already spent. So you’re saying we should let Congress be reckless with the check book, and refuse to make them pay any of the bills once they come due?

    In the end though, there can be no sensible talk of reducing government spending without first putting at least a 50% cut of the Department of Defense on the table. All else is quibbling over minutia. I have yet to hear any of these oh, so fiscally responsible people suggest we should stop flushing money down the war toilet. Except the Ron Paul… but his suggestion is that we burn the economy to the ground to save it.

  • Milo_Bloom

    And yet we’ve moved up, in real dollars, from $11,910 billion to $16,738 billion just during Mr. Obama’s reign. The ratio of GDP to debt during the same time has gone from 68% (ridiculous) to 100% (inconceivable).

    I’m certainly not going to award a medal to either side, but the direction we are moving is a train wreck of catastrophic proportions.

    Now, we can continue good cop bad cop, or you can read the actual article then my original comment and see if you understand. ;-)

  • Milo_Bloom

    So you believe any entity should borrow and spend recklessly with no thought to the future?

    Boy, I’d hate to see your checkbook…

  • Milo_Bloom

    Kind of you to speak for me, but please point out where I was applauding your government’s reckless spending from either flavor of your government.

    That’s right, I wasn’t. I’ve been against Mr. Obama’s / Mr. Bush’s wars, against inappropriate defense spending in addition to the most recent fiduciary abuse of the people by your government.

    The government is a poor steward of the peoples’ money, and should be cut off since it clearly will not change.

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    I also noticed how people like “Milo” there had no objections whatsoever to the Bush II tax cuts (both the 2001 and 2003 rounds), the unfunded Medicare-D program, nor the massive defense budget increases (doubling, in inflation adjusted dollars) and two off-the-books wars on top of that.

  • http://www.rebeccamorn.com/mind BeccaM

    Let’s try this again, shall we? Come back when you have something other than specious and patently false assertions to peddle.

  • Monoceros Forth

    I know. The notion that your average right-winger gives a toss for “the children” is ridiculous on its face.

  • nicho

    The so-called “debt” is only a problem in the Fox News world. It’s a phony issue, designed to scare people into horrendous “austerity” measures that will destroy your children’s and grandchildren’s futures.

  • Bill_Perdue

    The right is in power whether Democrats or Republicans control the government.

  • Milo_Bloom

    LOL, I think they hardly match the enthusiasm of the present “Exalted Leaders.” None the less, the article wishes to enjoy portraying them as inconsistent, I thought I’d play a long.

    I’d have been far happier if they had stuck to their guns. Instead they sided with the government against the people. Sad, really.

  • Monoceros Forth

    “So the right has mixed emotions about borrowing our children into oblivion?”

    Nah, not really. Look what happens every time they’re in power.

  • Milo_Bloom

    So the right has mixed emotions about borrowing our children into oblivion, whereas the left are completely committed to borrowing our children into oblivion?

    Seems a fair assessment.

  • Bill_Perdue

    I used to think that because of the Clintons and Obama the Democrats would be the first right wing party to achieve full Whighood.

    Now I’m beginning to wonder. As centrifugal polarization inside the Republican Party increases they seem to be, as party, putting their foot in their collect mouth and then shooting themselves in the foot. This is fun.

    Just last year they bent over backyards to give Obama, who’s Hoover redux if he’s anything, the election.

    Marx was right about most things and especially when he said “History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.”

  • Indigo

    LOL

  • http://poodyheads.wordpress.com/ zorbear

    Maybe they need a Die Master?

    :-P

  • Indigo

    It’s like the ghost of a vaudeville routine that nobody knows how to exorcise.

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