Russian vigilantes are videoing the kidnapping, beating and torture of young gays

What a seriously f’d up country.  Russian anti-gay extremists, emboldened by (and many suspect, in cahoots with) the Putin government’s crackdown on gay and trans Russians, have reportedly begun kidnapping and beating gay men, especially teenage boys, with ads on gay social networks.

When the boys and men show up for what they think is a sex date, they’re held hostage, abused, have urine poured on them, and then beaten.


The Russian group is calling itself “Occupy Pedophilia.”  And the videos they’re posting online, ostensibly of young gay men and boys that they’ve entrapped, and then beaten, are chilling.

They claim, in many of the videos, to be catching “pedophiles” by engaging in online chats on gay-oriented Web sites, and then posing as teenage kids looking for sex with someone over 18, or they pose as men looking for sex with someone under 18.  They then kidnap the either boy or man when he arrives for the “date.”

Here’s is a short clip of one of the videos that they posted online, showing them abducting and beating a young man. In this case, they lure a 26 year old into supposedly meeting up with a 15 year old:

UPDATE: The folks at Google got back to me, and fixed the problem – the video below was mistakenly taken down, as someone apparently misunderstood the intent, thinking it was an anti-gay video (it is, of course a video about people who are anti-gay, but our intent in posting it is to fight against anti-gay bias by exposing it).  Google put the video behind an age-wall, which is totally understandable.  Kudos for fixing this promptly.

While they claim to be anti-pedophile, they clearly link “gay” and pedophile together, and in at least one case, they appear to have kicked and poured urine on a 15 year old boy who thought he was meeting up with an older man.  That boy is clearly not a pedophile.  According to a human rights group monitoring the situation, the group’s usual modus operandi is to lure the child, rather than an adult, for the abduction and torture.

They post photos and video of the young men that they claim to have ensnared, and abducted, on a Russian social media network,  Here’s one such photo post. The boy is holding a dildo – they routinely torment their victims with sex toys:

And here’s another – presumably he is having urine poured on his head, as they brag that this is one of their tactics:


Towleroad was one of the first to report on this travesty a few days ago.  They cited an Eastern European LGBT rights group, Spectrum Human Rights Alliance, which explained the origin of the vigilante kidnapping gangs:

Infamous Russian ultranationalist and former skin head, Maxim Martsinkevich, known under the nickname ‘Cleaver’… spearheaded a countrywide campaign against LGBT teens using a popular social network to lure unsuspected victims through personal ads.

Mr. Martsinkevich’s numerous and enthusiastic followers started two projects: ‘Occupy Pedophilyaj’ and ‘Occupy Gerontilyaj’.

Allegedly they are trying to identify and report pedophiles using these ‘movements’. In reality, over 500 online groups have been created inside social network in order to organize illegal militant groups in every Russian city. Oddly enough their idea of fighting pedophiles targets exclusively male teenagers who respond to the same-sex personal ads and show up for a date. Captured victims are bullied and often tortured while being recorded on video.

These self-proclaimed “crime fighters” perform their actions under the broad day light, often outside and clearly visible to general public that indifferently passes by or even commend them. Video recordings of bullying and tortures are freely distributed on the Internet in order to out LGBT teens to their respective schools, parents and friends. Many victims were driven to suicide, the rest are deeply traumatized.

So far Russian police took no action against these “movements” even though Russian criminal code was clearly violated and despite numerous complaints from parents, victims and LGBT activists.

Social network intermittently shuts down selected groups and profiles only to allow them to be re-open on the next day.

Currently, the founder of, Pavel Durov, resides in the US and so far has not released any comments.

If he’s in the US, then he’s under US legal jurisdiction, at least in so far as the degree to which the human rights groups might argue that he’s permitting his social media network to be used by what could be described as organized crime.


Here’s a second violent excerpt of the Russian vigilantes abducting and beating a man they call “Pedophile #4.” This is one is perhaps more shocking than the previous one – at one point you can hear what sounds, to me at least, like a taser being used.

Enough is enough.  Harvey Fierstein and Nancy Goldstein were both within their rights to invoke Nazi Germany.  I don’t have the family history they have in the region (though the Nazis did try to execute some of my relatives in Greece).  I am, however, intimately familiar with the workings of the Soviet Union, which I studied in depth in graduate school, and visited in (ironically) 1984.   It was a terrible police state where I watched new-found Russian friends taken away by the secret police for the simple crime of having befriended an American.  Everyday Russians would squeeze against us on buses and whisper in our ears, afraid to be seen speaking to a foreigner, let alone a westerner.

Russian-anti-gay-group-OccupyA truly, uniquely nasty country among the nearly 30 or so I’ve had the good fortune to visit in my life.

This is why we’re boycotting Russia.  And Russian vodka.  And Stolichnaya.  And it’s why we need a major response to the upcoming Winter Olympics in Sochi, Russia in 2014.  The Russians, like the Nazis, have always enjoyed using the Olympics to paint themselves with a veneer of respectability.

But sadly for the Russian authorities, they’re not the only ones who know how to use social media in order to capture and destroy their prey.

Follow me on Twitter: @aravosis | @americablog | @americabloggay | Facebook | Google+ | LinkedIn. John Aravosis is the editor of AMERICAblog, which he founded in 2004. He has a joint law degree (JD) and masters in Foreign Service from Georgetown (1989); and worked in the US Senate, World Bank, Children's Defense Fund, and as a stringer for the Economist. Frequent TV pundit: O'Reilly Factor, Hardball, World News Tonight, Nightline & Reliable Sources. Bio, .

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  • Julien Blais
  • Dean Jackson

    “Like the Party, the Komsomol had increased its strength and widened its role in the support of the [Long-Range Policy”] strategy. Its membership probably exceeds 40 million. The Party and Komsomol have close ties with the trade unions, the unions of creative workers and the 6 million vigilantes who assist the Ministry of the Interior and the militia in the policing of the population of the larger Soviet cities. Their existence and their role have been important factors rendering possible the introduction and control of Soviet ‘democratisation’.” — KGB Defector Major Anatoliy Golitsyn, The Perestroika Deception, September-November 1990, p. 123.

    “British Ambassador to Moscow: ‘I was besieged by Putin thugs'”

    “The group is an offshoot of the pro-Kremlin youth movement The Young Russia which was formed in the mid-2000s, analysts and opposition figures say, to prevent street protests…”

  • ayatali
  • ayatali
  • ayatali
  • Федор

    Proud Russia!
    Горжусь Россией!

  • Mark

    This [below] is a graphic and disturbing documentary of Russian nation-wide homophobia and torture. The Russian government AND the Russian people in general appear to ignore, if not condone, violent homophobia.
    It is scarily reminiscent of Germany in the 1930’s. The Nazi propaganda of the time linked Jews with paedophilia (and we now understand the consequences of that propaganda) as the Russian government is now explicitly linking homosexuality to paedophilia.

  • david

    Another reason why Russia needs to allow people to arm them selves and for gays or anyone whom is discriminated against to carry a gun, and maybe we can put down a few of these homophobic assholes

  • Robin

    Let’s be realistic, they entrapped, abducted, stripped and abused a young boy. I can’t see any other way of describing them than gay paedophile sadists.

  • Robin

    They are quite clearly paedophile sadists. So it’s more socially acceptable to entrap, abduct, strip and abuse children is Russia than to be gay is it?

  • Jaqen

    So to stand up for gay people, you decide to call straight people “gay” in an attempt to insult them. The confusion in this one is strong.

  • The_Fixer

    Well, I guess you told me, huh?

    Sorry, I ain’t taking the bait.

  • Frank

    But you’ll buy American goods despite their two illegal, decade long wars? You’ll buy American despite their concentration camp in Cuba? You’ll buy American despite them being the country with the largest prison population in the world? You’ll buy American despite America being responsible for more civilian deaths of any nation ever? You’ll buy American even as American children are taken from loving parents only because the parents smoked a joint? Get your fucking priorities straight.

  • darioper

    After 2 years of classical lessons with a cheap guitar, I got a Hofner(498 or close) right from Germany. I felt like Segovia. A good guitar separates tones. It truly sounds like music. My 1963 is still with me and sounding great. Though I realize I ain’t no Segovia or Williams or Parkenson(Christofer), its really nice to sit at the end of the bed and still entertain at least myself

  • Jimmy Reagan

    HAHA! You’re funny..

  • Jimmy Reagan

    Yeah, not not nearly as bad..and at least we have checks and balances.. It sounds like the cops answer to no one, or no one has enough power to concern them with doing the right thing.. The way things are going over there, and the way Putin and the government are acting, I think it would be safe to say they’ll be back in the U.S.S.R. very soon..

  • Jimmy Reagan

    I know, right.. It sounds like Pat Robertson and Fred Phelp’s wet dream come true.. Sad.. BOYCOTT RUSSIA!

  • Jimmy Reagan

    Actually with Bing translate, language is no longer a barrier : “You lie because you want to cheat.”

  • Jimmy Reagan

    frankly, 15 is hardly a “child”..I’m no justifying or saying what he did was right, but for the people to do what they did, rather than call the cops, is wrong.. Every country has different ages of consent… and 15, is not like 10 or 13..and they set HIM up.. What’s even more shocking is that the video was shot in a busy area during the day, and not one person tried to stop it – NICE Country… I also know Russia’s police are extremely corrupt, which is why everyone drives around with dashboard cameras.. It’s like Bizarro World North America..No thanks.. I’m glad I live here.

  • Jimmy Reagan

    This is horrible. It’s like Nazi Germany happening before our eyes…and they all try and put a happy face on the situation… But they’ve even said themselves, that the authorities can CLAIM “there were children exposed” to “homosexual propaganda” (which includes basic statements like “I am gay”), thus giving them the go ahead to charge, harass, beat, torture or..even kill that person.. it’s been happening.
    This is extremely disturbing and frightening.. I remember when right wing freaks wanted to pass legislation in the U.S. and each time claiming it was to “protect the children”, to which, the U.S. Supreme Court has always ruled that society cannot be run so as to only benefit children, and that parents HAVE to do their jobs as parents; which is why we have Movie & TV Rating Systems and parental controlled internet programs..

    Censorship is NEVER the answer, and that’s what Russia is, a Police state, where ignorance is SUPREME, freedom of speech and expression is NOT tolerated, and all it takes to ruin your life is say “Hey, this guy or woman is exposing kids to homosexual propaganda”… Horrible.. Then there’s the story about the head of Russia’s state controlled TV, who said during his news show that broadcasts every two hours, and is #1 in Russia, that “Gay people’s hearts are unsuitable for life”… WOW! Talk about fascism.. Talk about Propaganda.. Talk about B.S. Then there’s the topic of bullying and teen suicide which will be a catastrophic, and there will be nowhere for these kids to turn to.. and as we’ve seen, that the Russian government is promoting and encouraging bullying and hate.. and informing on one another too..

    I recall reading a story not too long ago, about how Russia was concerned because they are not producing enough Russian males.. they then put limits on groups who could adopt, including Gays and ALL Americans (that was from that dirty fugly Nazi, Putin)..

    Then I saw a news story from awhile back, on how they were trying to eliminate Scientologists from spreading propaganda and were raiding where they work and seizing their property.. I am in NO way endorsing Scientology – I personally disagree with it and think it’s a creepy cult (plus they hate the gays too), HOWEVER… this is how Nazi Germany happened, they singled out groups one at a time, limited free speech (Paragraph 175 for the Homosexuals), and expression, until it was too late for people to wake up and do anything about it..

    They picked on the wrong group this time and pissed off the Gays worldwide.. not a good thing for them to do… I am so glad we have gay media like the Advocate and Gay Star News. I am glad we have social media that can pick up on this stuff as it happens and not have to wait for Corporate Owned News – FOX hadn’t uttered ONE word about what’s going on, until this past weekend, when a FOX News contributor said/implied “President Obama wants the Olympic athletes to be gay”….. (yeah!)… We have a president who believes that all people deserve respect and decency, and the contards at FOX twisted it all around (as they normally do), to suck up to their narrow minded stupid audience… So now Russia has issued statements saying that they are being bullied by the world, and wonders why we’re in their business? BECAUSE YOU’RE EVIL AND FASCISTS!

    I say Boycott RUSSIA, Boycott the Olympics for wussing out and being just as bigoted – the Olympics are supposed to be about overcoming obstacles, and their decision to “reprimand” anyone pro gay or expressing themselves is just as bad as Russia..They sided with hate.. And if you get it, Boycott RT (Russian Television) too. They were silent on the issue and then finally did a “Propaganda piece” making it look like it’s no big deal..complete with so called gays who are happy with the law, but yet, didn’t want anyone to see the bar(s) they go to.. and statements like “I wish Americans would mind their own business”… PROPAGANDA.

    I will NEVER again watch anything that has to do with the Olympics.. it’s a total disgrace.. and as for Greg Louganis getting on TV and selfishly whining that there should be no boycott of the Olympics, because he had to wait to earn his medals and it was such a bummer – SCREW YOU, YOU STUPID MINDLESS AIRHEAD.. As for NBC..I know they aren’t not going to air the games, but how they deal with it is up in the air.

    I would also encourage people to contact companies and services and request that they not advertise during the Olympics. As big as this worldwide outrage has become, I can’t see any company thinking advertising in this toxic mess would be good for them, because people will remember long after that they supported hate… So sad that in 2013, instead of moving forward, Russia decided to go back 70 years.. and feel that being controlled is better than freedom and happiness… Must be all that toxic lead paint, limited education and wind drifts from Chernobyl that have made most of them so stupid, arrogant and proudly ignorant.

  • Guest

    “Here’s is a short clip of one of the videos that they posted online, showing them abducting and beating a young man. In this case, they lure a 26 year old into supposedly meeting up with a 15 year old”.. Ummm..not saying it isn’t shocking, inhumane and wrong….but how was that clip “ant-gay”, considering the guy abducted was thinking he was meeting a GIRL? Not sure what the age of consent is in Russia, but a guy meeting a girl – not gay…

  • Super Amanda

    International human rights are being violated and the global power structure is doing NOTHING. The country is sick.

  • sambo41

    Actually if you cant speak russian you dont know what is going on. First of all This group of guys use social media to lure in pedophiles that target young children and confront them after setting up a fake date. This has nothing to do with gay hatred. The media has nothing better to do but to make false claims against russians. At least these guys care enough to take it upon themselves to single out pedophiles and child mollesters, they give out their names publicly and teach them a lesson and even save young teenagers from becoming a statistic or even ending up on a milk carton. The united states needs guys like them to single out the perverts here. The proof is in the documented conversations prior to the interaction….

  • Aleksandra

    Even though i still think that what guys did in the first video was wrong and they should go to the police instead of filming it, if you really know russian you would understand what they’re saying. The man was chatting with 15 year old boy and he came to the arranged place to have sex with him. So basically they did not say anything about him being gay, they were accusing him of being a pedophile. I don’t support what they did and Russia (for the most past) IS homophobic but that video is not about homophobia

  • wjfoipe

    FInally someone else who hates the show glee as much as I do

  • Chris

    Illegal, but it would not have resulted in imprisonment and is highly unlikely to have resulted in violence.

  • Dreamerw

    Do you know stoli is Latvian and not Russian?

  • Bri Fi

    “In Russia, if we did this, we would be arrested and deported.”

    From the article, it seems you left out “beaten and tortured”…chilling.

    I wish you the best in your marriage, love always prevails in the end.

  • Anonymous

    Apparently, the black haired victim in the picture has already committed suicide. The source is unofficial, a Livejournal, but it may well be true. And there’s a video of an LGBT activist standing up to the bullies, which resulted in them taking him to a suicide victim’s grave. Absolutely terrible. See here:

  • Vyqxn James

    Those Russian Vigilante Gym-queens are looking quite gay themselves. Judging by those girly smiles & apparent bulges, they seem to believe that they don’t have us convinced that they’re nothing more than everything they are projecting onto innocent victims.

  • stanleywhyte

    “Ты” и “Вы” в одном предложении, относящиеся к одному и тому же человеку использовать невозможно. Если же местоимение “вы” относится к группе людей, то тогда предложение не правильное. Правильнее будет сказать “они”. Как то так, на мой взгляд. :)

  • stanleywhyte

    The best way is to ask their views when they are receiving visas to go to Europe or North America.

  • Jean-Marc Jon Deschamps

    I wonder what would happen if we started terrorizing Russian immigrants or christians in this manner…….of course, I know the answer because we are civilized: we would be rightly arrested and jailed for committing a crime. That, in a nutshell, is the difference between a secular society and one ruled in a theocratic manner…….take note America.

  • Jean-Marc Jon Deschamps

    Actually, I DO understand Russian and you’re lying. Ты лжешь, потому что вы хотите обмануть

    If you speak Russian as you claim, you should be able to figure out what I wrote and, assuming you know Russian, you should also understand the unique syntax of the language. Name it and I may believe you at least know something of it………not holding my breath.

  • Whit Johnstone

    I agree that “To Catch a Preditor” is wrong. It’s vigilantism and trial by the media, and a mockery of justice. But this Russian violence is worse, and different in degree and kind from the actions of “perverted justice”. These guys are clearly using pedophila as an excuse to target gay men, and teenage boys, and they use violence. The fact that they are kidnapping and beating underage boys as well as men is telling. Perverted justice never targeted kids who want to have sex with adults, and 90% of the time they impersonate girls, not boys.

  • felliott

    Asswipe, have you ever hear of the Holodomor?

  • The_Fixer

    Yes, in addition to the points you made about Asian markets, there is also one important other circumstance that allows them to “wait the market out”. They have a lot of government support. If they sell something at less than cost, their government helps them out. In the case of China, there’s also currency manipulation.

    American TVs? I can’t think of one that’s made here. I think the last American TV plant, which assembled several differently branded TVs (even Japanese and Korean branded models), closed 10 or more years ago. I also used to repair TVs, which is pretty much a dying art these days. Not only can one buy a new one so cheaply, but major replacement parts are priced ridiculously. This is going to create an ecological and human nightmare – all of the stuff that could be fixed is now tossed in a landfill or sent to third-world countries for “recycling”. You’re right, even specialty electronics made in the U.S. are indeed loaded with Chinese parts.

    The situation with Russian-made vacuum tubes is interesting. Back in the 70s when the U.S. was closing their tube plants, the Russians kept them going. The reason was that due to economic conditions, older products using vacuum tubes had a longer life-cycle. They soon became the world’s supplier for tubes. In the early 90s when I started volunteering for the National Weather Service, our area was served by an ancient 1950s-era weather RADAR (in 1993 we got Doppler RADAR). They had to order the tubes needed for repair from Russia, at one point it was out of service for a couple of weeks while they were awaiting a new tube.

    Other former Soviet satellite countries did the same, and are still cranking out tubes. However, the quality is often poor and at best acceptable. Groove Tubes managed to buy the machinery used to make G.E. tubes back in the “Golden Age” of U.S. tube manufacture, and now make their own of specific types. They are far better than their Russian counterparts.

    From what I’ve read, we really don’t see many finished goods of Russian manufacture. As you rightly observe, the average person often can’t identify a single thing they bought that was made in Russia. Most of their exports are of the raw material variety. But I vote with my wallet when I can, and Russian vodka and vacuum tubes are the finished goods that I know of. It’s impossible to do that with raw materials, of course. But I can’t feel good about buying anything Russian if I know that it came from there.

  • sng666

    if you don’t understand russian….this was a pedophile who targeted and wanted to fuck a child after a brief exchange on internet;

    You are pathetic, the child sexual abused doesn’t matter, the pedo’s “human rights” are. what a shame.

  • Stanley Marsh

    >they punish the older predator

    same here. watch their other videos.

    >it’s still about the gay factor.

    It’s not. they only target alleged pedophiles.

    I’m not saying they’re right – I’m saying if you accept them being wrong – you must also accept to catch a predator being wrong.

  • Anonymous

    Except that in To Catch a Predator, they punish the older predator, not the underage person. In the US they won’t arrest someone who’s underage for having sex with an adult. Can you imagine if they humiliated a female underage prostitute in this way? Maybe this kid was in a desperate situation. Anyway…it’s still about the gay factor.
    Are you really Stanley Marsh?

  • Naja pallida

    That’s the thing with most of the Asian markets, not only do they generally pay lower wages (at least for China and Indonesia, not so much for Japan), but also that they think 10, 15, 20 years into the future when they enter a new market. They will sell at near cost for many years, just to gain market share. Once they have that market share, they can do pretty much whatever they want. It worked the same way with cars, but especially electronics, how many American television manufacturers do you know of today? And even if you crack open an American-made television or stereo, it’ll be mostly Made in China parts inside. :)

    You are definitely right about the action of a quality instrument making a difference. My first guitar was a cheap one from a pawn shop, me shrugging that a guitar is a guitar, without putting a whole lot of thought into it. It was really hard to learn on, and quite discouraging, but I finally got fed up and decided to buy an Ibanez imported from Japan. It certainly is not top of the line, but much better quality than the original one, and it made everything easier. I still can’t make any claims about my skill, but it’s much more comfortable to play and thus gives me that much more confidence.

    I’m not buying Russian-made goods either, but I looked through my life and can’t really think of any I bought in the first place, unless you count souvenirs I brought back from traveling there years ago. I was surprised that you mentioned the vacuum tubes. It seems like such a strange specialty item to be imported from the other side of the world.

  • The_Fixer

    Yeah, the higher quality stuff does come at a price. But surprisingly, the U.S. made tubes that Groove Tubes sells are not really that much more expensive than the ones made in Russia. I think that’s because they reject a lot of Russian tubes for quality reasons.

    And as far as skill level and not being able to appreciate quality goes, well, I know what you mean :) I am a half-assed keyboard player and although I can tell the difference between a good instrument and a bad one, a good one doesn’t make me sound all that much better. Only a little bit. Part of that is the increased confidence I get from the better sound. Part of it may also be that I think I sound better when playing a good instrument :) But seriously, a better action on a quality piano can make any player sound better. It’s probably the same with a guitar – a bad fretboard must be harder to play with.

    I wonder how much a high quality instrument, made by well-paid people under good working conditions in say, China would cost? I firmly believe that it would cost more than it’s comparable American-manufactured instrument. After all, there’s the added transportation cost.

    In the end, though, I am not buying Russian-made goods or parts unless and until they fix this situation.

  • trivagay

    i bet many gay closeted married men from Nebraska jerked off to this

  • Stanley Marsh

    Same as “to catch a predator”. SAME … EXACT …. THING. One setup differs from another by the lack of civility, outer shine and big corporation backing you – but really – same exact thing.

  • Loren Evans

    Nothing much more cowardly, disgusting and vile than bullies. Travel in packs, armed against individuals without defense. But then again that is the Russian way. Neighbors sent their son from Arizona to Russia on a Mormon mission, he was beaten weekly for protection money by mafia gangs.

  • mark_in_toronto

    Nuke ‘em!

  • Sterling Ericsson

    I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the groups here like NOM or the FRC have started donating to Russia because of this.

    Heck, i’m surprised they haven’t started a counter-protest action yet in support of Russia.

  • pigboy

    I see that now.
    And the Russian police just stand by and allow these
    What is wrong with these people?
    Still in the back of my mind I can hear the cRistian right, here in the US cheering them on.
    I am so glad gay rights are expanding here. I know there is a long way to go still but at least we are not heading in Russias direction.

  • Rambie

    They had major influence in certain states and entire sections at one time, however, the KKK never ran the Federal government.

  • Bill_Perdue

    Changed it to outrage.

    Bigotry here is different than but just as bad for us as it’s Russian variant is for them. We have serious problems with bigots like the Clintons, Putin, Obama, Medvedev, the Bushes, etc that lead to violence.

  • cole3244

    white america has been walking and driving by black ghettos for decades and blaming their plight on them, history repeating itself again.

  • Sterling Ericsson

    The group puts out gay dating things online for the local area. Presumably, any guy that responds to them is gay.

  • BeccaM

    Sure hope so, my friend.

  • BeccaM

    Thanks. :-)

    As I’ve mentioned a bunch of times here, my wife and I actually wed back in ’98. Then did the DP thing in California as soon as it was available. Reconfirmed it when they would’ve let us bail due to the added not-quite-marriage provisions a few years later. Were married in San Fran in ’04, had it invalidated. Nearly married just before the ’08 PropH8 debacle. We see this current trip as a lengthy and somewhat bothersome, but legally necessary measure.

  • pigboy

    They are goddamn thugs. How the fuck can you tell who is or who isn’t gay?
    I guess if these fools beat you up your’e gay.

  • Sterling Ericsson

    Yeah, I know. It’s just annoying that that terminology needs to be used when the evidence is so plain to see.

  • BeccaM

    John’s a journalist. Using terms like ‘reportedly’ and ‘allegedly’ and ‘suspected (whatever)’ are professional tools used to avoid charges of slander in the absence of a conviction in a court of law. No matter how compelling and obvious the evidence may be.

  • karmanot

    The Russian police are thugs and paid criminals, not unlike our own.

  • FLL

    Sounds hectic, but congrats in any case.

  • BeccaM

    Outrage and rage are two entirely different things.

    I also do not believe I’m in denial.

  • karmanot

    Congrats, you two. Maybe we can celebrate someday in the future. I still have friends and family in Santa Fe.

  • karmanot

    Here’s the deal: bend over, put head up dark place and I’ll whisper ‘genocide’ in your ear and maybe in that stillness your can hear the message.

  • BeccaM

    Alas, it’s one of those good news / bad news situations for us right now. The good news is I have a lot of paying work at present; the bad news is I’m all but chained to my desk, and so our current plan is to make a quick 1-2 day dash from NM over to San Bernardino. Still deciding exactly when, based in part on my work schedule.

  • FLL

    Yes, I agree. I was thinking that myself. My reply to Rambie only said that Alabama and Mississippi weren’t global powers that were capable of dragging the planet into world war. But you’re right, the Southern state governments were very much in charge of state-level decisions over the people living in those states, and they usually supported the KKK during the 1920s and 1950s.

  • karmanot


  • Sterling Ericsson

    There’s no need to use “reportedly” when we have video evidence, evidence that the perpetrators seem perfectly fine with spreading around for people to see.

    What makes this even worse is that the members of this neo-Nazi group are all known. We know their names and everything, we have video and photographic evidence. And yet the Russian police do nothing.

  • Eric

    I’m wondering if you’re going to actually do anything or just shout ideas that don’t even make sense.

  • Bill_Perdue

    The US is not only capable of genocide but committed it in Vietnam, led by mad warmongers like LBJ and in Iraq led by mad dog warmongers like the Bushes and the Clintons.

    In addition the US and NATO have attacked at least a dozen other nations since they began the seemingly endless war to dominate oil resources in the 1990’s.

    It is always dangerous when people ignore the crimes of Democrats and Republicans.

  • karmanot

    You do have a point: When Obozo does speak, it’s a guarantee that nothing will change.

  • Eric

    This is only an issue because of the olympics. Worse is going on elsewhere.

  • karmanot

    We do.

  • eric

    Why does Obama need to say something? It’s not going to change anything. This is going to be an issue for a while.

  • karmanot

    Stand your ground GLTBQ Russians!

  • karmanot

    Obozo? Speak on criminal abuse of the GLTBQ communities in Russia? Probably because his evolving ‘ick’ factor only applies to Americans.

  • Bill_Perdue

    I reported what’s known without a larger number of murders in the RF. I don’t know so I don’t assume, you don';t know but, patriotically, you do assume.

    What fictitious number do you assume: 10? 278? 3,482?

    I’m sorry if being critical of bigots like Obama, the Clintons and Bushes upsets you. I dislike them for the same reasons I dislike the pope or Putin or Medvedev.

  • karmanot

    “The KKK never ruled the government” Not quite true. The KKK ruled the south for years. One of its most illustrious members was the stentorian Sen. Byrd.

  • karmanot

    “I wrote HRC last year for some advice on the topic of helping LGBT people internationally but never got a response” Ain’t that the truth. They don’t have time for snail mail—-the cocktail circuit begins at lunch.

  • Bill_Perdue

    It didn’t end in genocide here, at least not for us. People of color are a different matter. The only place where that might happen is Iran or in formerly US occupied Iraq.

    I don’t think it the motivation of your rage, I think it does play a role in the denial that in the US and the RF we have serious problems with bigots like the Clintons, Putin, Obama, Medvedev, the Bushes, etc that lead to violence.

  • karmanot

    Boris and Natasha are now beink z head of zat department of redundancy.

  • FLL

    You’re missing the point of my comment about comparing the number of fatal LGBT hate crimes in the U.S. vs. Russia. You quoted the number of fatal LGBT hate crimes in the U.S. as 20-30 each year because that information is part of public record. It is part of public record because the U.S., like most Western countries, keeps track of LGBT hate crimes. Russia, in contrast, does not keep track of LGBT hate crimes, which means that you, Bill Perdue, don’t have the faintest idea how many fatal LGBT hate crimes occur in Russia. For all you know, there might be who knows how many fatal LGBT hate crimes that have occurred in Russia so far in 2013. You took the two murders in Russia from press reports, and then leaped to the astonishing conclusion that these were the only fatal LGBT hate crimes in Russia so far this year. That is pure fabrication on your part. Before you tell us that you hope Russia doesn’t sink to the level of the U.S., you should check to see whether you’re supporting that statement with a lie or fabrication.

  • karmanot

    Everyday good Germans walked past the Warsaw Ghetto walls, could smell the horrible stench of rot and death, could hear the cries, could even see the starving faces and clutched tighter their shopping baskets larded with bread, butter and sausages. It’s not pretty, but it IS our moral duty to witness and if and when possible—- to act, intervene, or tell the stories.

  • karmanot

    Goebbels would want you to be confused—-think of it that way.

  • Bill_Perdue

    We disagree.

  • Bill_Perdue

    The police have arrested the murderers of the man in Volgagrad and in Kamchatka. Surely you noticed that.

    What they don’t do is try to stop organized thugs from the cults and neo-Nazis who attack demonstrations.

  • karmanot

    “we have more in common with our Russian brothers and sisters than we do with our fellow citizens.” I’m sorry my brother but that just ain’t so.

  • karmanot

    If you are anywhere near Northern SF—-Sebastopol stop by for a celebratory moment!

  • BeccaM

    You keep bringing up the Cold War and assigning that as the prime motivation for our outrage.

    It is not. It is opposition to a nascent pogrom of the kind that, if human history is any indication, usually ends in genocide.

  • Bill_Perdue

    I said we don’t have good data on Russia and that I couldn’t even find any at the most reliable source there – I’d like to see some data, but for now the data clearly says that murders are much, much worse here and have been for some time.

    I didn’t say anything about hate crimes reporting in Russia because I have no clue about the subject and if you have some proof and data please let us know.

    The general level of violence is increasing there because Putin is playing the same game played by the Clintons and the Democrats, who voted overwhelmingly for DOMA and by Bush and the Republicans, who introduced DOMAs into almost 40 states. Violence always shoots up when the cults and the politicians who pander to them promote bigotry and refuse to pass protective laws. Here, in France, and in Russia.

  • Bill_Perdue

    It became legal for the second time in California a couple of months ago. How many US states still forbid adoption. How many mothers have lost there child because of bigotry.

    Russia is decades behind the US, but that’s not the point. This is not a cold war thing, we’re not discussing a ‘bigotry gap’ and we have more in common with our Russian brothers and sisters than we do with our fellow citizens.

  • BeccaM

    Show us some reported arrests and prosecutions of these individuals and we might believe you.

  • BeccaM

    It’s been legal since 2004, starting in Massachusetts, and throughout Canada starting in 2005.

    At this point, even in those states where they still have same-sex marriage bans, we would merely be turned away, not arrested. And a foreign couple doing the same thing would not be arrested, imprisoned for up to two weeks and deported.

    I can walk down the street here, holding my wife’s hand, and while it is possible we might be harassed for it, if we reported the crime, it would — in most jurisdictions — be taken seriously. If we stood in St. Petersburg and did the same thing, we would be arrested and anybody who harassed us probably given an attaboy from the local constabulary.

    In Russia, they are openly discussing — in the Russian legislature — taking away the children of gay and lesbian parents. It is worse there than here, and I say this as someone who actually has traveled and, in some countries, didn’t just have to suffer the lack of legal protections, but literally did have to conceal the fact my wife and I are together.

    According to a Pew study, 60% of Americans are fine with homosexuality. In France, it is 77%. In Russia, that number is 16%, which goes a long way to explaining why gays, lesbians, and transgenders have become Russia’s replacement for their since-vanished Jewish scapegoats.

    It is and just about always has been an objectively worse experience to be a gay person in Russia than in America. Certainly ever since the 1980s. Which I did live through.

  • John Aravosis

    That is beyond ridiculous. You actually think hate crimes are reported and then covered in the media in Russia to the same degree they are in the US? I’m sorry but that is absolutely absurd.

  • ccm800

    These people will certainly be bought to justice. They have themselves in the videos and kidnapping and torture are all against the law in Russia.

  • Bill_Perdue

    Organized violence is much, much worse in Russia. Murders are much, much worse here. Organized riots in France are much larger and the numbers of murders in Iran and in US occupied Iraq are horrendous, in the hundreds in Iraq and the thousands in Iran.

    Each country expresses bigotry in different way and there are no countries where it’s not a lethal problem for us.

    I’m glad that you can get married but until a couple of months ago it would have been illegal here.

    Let me know where you’re going to sneak in your next reply so I can keep track of what you’re saying.

  • BeccaM

    You first. Where are the mobs attacking our Gay Pride parades? The American skinheads openly posting gay assaults on the Internet and not facing prosecution?

    In a couple weeks, my wife and I are driving to California to stand in front of a county clerk, declare that we are two women who wish to avail ourselves of the civil marriage which we can obtain under law, and be married.

    In Russia, if we did this, we would be arrested and deported.

  • Bill_Perdue

    “Russia is far, far below our level at this point when it comes to protections for LGBT people.” Yes. I was speaking solely about violence. I’ve read nothing to contradict my assertion that violence, at least in terms of murders is worse here. I have no clue about beatings and suicides. They have a large number of suicide hotlines just like we do but I couldn’t find any links like the NCAVP.

    The question is how far will the violence advance in Russia given the Putin is acting like Obama, the Clintons and the Bushes. I expect it’l get much worse there and in other areas of the former USSR and the Warsaw Pact.

    Protections in the US will remain limited until Congress repeals or the courts knock down the remainder of DOMA and until Congress passes ENDA or a CRA.

  • Bill_Perdue

    Still fighting the cold war? This is not a war against Russia, but against bigots like Putin, Obama, Bushes, cults like the orthodox and roman cults, mormons and Pentecostals, and the bigots named Hillary and Bill Clinton.

    It’s also about supporting our Russian community and building our own movement here.

    Everyone should look at the data provied by the NCAVP, the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs. and cults isn’t the direct cause of discrimination harassment and violence including murders and induced suicides is dead wrong.

    The two murders I reported in the RF were from the press. No doubt FLL can supply us with data proving that there are more murders in the RF than in the US. Maybe he’ll deny the connection between the murder of 1996, 1997 and 1998 and Bill Clinton’s DOMA or the murder of PFC Pfc. Barry Winchell and Bill Clintons DADT.

  • Bill_Perdue

    The data suggest we are. Do you have any evidence to the contrary.

  • BeccaM

    As bad as things can be here in America for LGBTs, especially young gays and transgendered folks, I think it’s unwarranted hyperbole to suggest we’re far worse than Russia on gay rights at this point.

  • BeccaM

    Russia is far, far below our level at this point when it comes to protections for LGBT people.

  • Michael

    I believe many of the rare earth minerals that are used to build electronic devices come out of Africa. But I’m not sure which countries it is. I’m sure a 5 minute search on Google could tell you

  • Naja pallida

    It’s incredibly difficult to justify the cost of many American-made instruments these days. They are basically triple the price of their Asian-made counterparts. My cheaper guitars were all made in Indonesia or Korea, my bass is made in China – but it’s a pretty crappy instrument I got just to learn on. My best guitar was made in Japan. I don’t really like it, but I buy what I can afford. Maybe it’s just that I haven’t owned a really high quality hand-made American-built instrument to feel the difference in quality, but my skill level just can’t justify the extra cost.

  • cole3244

    i don’t want to ignore it its just that showing videos sometimes leads others to copy or imitate what they see, report it but i’m not convinced videos are the way to go, just another opinion i’m not criticizing one way or the other.
    ps – if one could guarantee that only certain IQ levels would watch these videos i wouldn’t be concerned.

  • John Aravosis

    Just contacted Google, didn’t realize, thanks

  • John Aravosis

    If we ignore it, it will continue and grow – it’s already all over the Russian social media networks. By exposing it on ours, we take a step towards stopping all of it. By not exposing it, we let it continue.

  • FLL

    Commenters, please refresh everyone’s memory with data about the “waves of violence” in the U.S. in 1996 and 2004 that Bill Perdue refers to in his comment below:

    “The violence in the RF sounds like the waves of violence that accompanied the passage of federal and state DOMAs spearheaded by Clintons and Bush2 and the violence that occurred when Obama galvanized the bigots and christer right when Prop 8 was up for a vote.”

    Also, commenters, please give some reference stating where the Russian government keeps track of murder victims by sexual orientation. Western countries keep statistics like this (by sexual orientation), but as far as I know, the Russian government does not. This would answer another comment from Bill Perdue:

    “The are 20-30 GLBT victims murdered in any given year in the US. So far this year there are two in Russia. We can only hope that they don’t descend to our level.”

  • FLL

    Obviously, there is a huge gap in time between the parallels of the mid-twentieth century and today. You would reasonably think that a better standard would be expected today than was expected in the mid-twentieth century. But then, Russia in 1917 was only 56 years removed from medieval serfdom. At the beginning of the twentieth century, Russia was just struggling to escape the Middle Ages. This in no way excuses the actions of the present Russian government or the attitudes of the Russian population. I’m only trying to offer some historic context for the madness that we’re seeing in Russia today.

  • cole3244

    i understand, its just that the haters want the acts to be shared and maybe spreading their hatred might not be the best way to respond, i too am confused about how to react since i don’t want to increase these incidents by copy cats or others.

  • The_Fixer

    I did not watch the videos, they simply are too much and I’ve seen similar videos. The pictures were enough.

    As others have said, there’s not much we can do to directly influence the Russian political system right now. But I am voting with my wallet, and think that at some point when the Russian people cool down, they may be shamed into changing their attitudes when they are pressured by their trading partners.

    I am taking part in the boycott of Russian products. I mentioned to my bartender that I will not drink Russian vodka. And there’s another way I have participated.

    I repair vintage and re-issue musical instrument amplifiers that use vacuum tubes, which are popular among musicians for their sound. A lot of the tubes used in these amplifiers are made in
    Russia. If you’re a guitar player, or play another instrument that uses vacuum tubes (such as a classic Hammond B-3 organ with a Leslie tone cabinet), take note of the tubes you buy when renewing them.

    There are a couple of Russian-owned companies, such as Sovtek that manufacture and sell vacuum tubes both under their own names and others. Groove Tubes (owned by Fender) has a selection of Russian tubes. There are others who re-brand Russian tubes and sell them as well.

    Musicians, pay attention to the source of your tubes when renewing them. Make sure your you (or your tech) is using non-Russian tubes. There are actually a few American-made tubes around, believe it or not. And there are other countries that source vacuum tubes (although buying
    Chinese tubes does not make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside).

    I know that this might seem a little odd of a topic to bring up in a political blog, but the principle holds – don’t buy Russian goods. Awareness among musicians is important, many of whom are LGBT supporters who would be horrified to hear that they are buying from a country that is institutionalizing hatred of LGBT people.

    There are likely other products made in Russia that we’re not aware of. Spread the word!

  • FLL

    It’s always more dangerous when the authorities supporting this madness represent a world power rather than a state jurisdiction in inside a country. Nazi Germany and modern Russia are examples of world powers that were and are perfectly capable of dragging the planet into a world war. The states of Alabama and Mississippi were never capable of that since they aren’t countries, let alone world powers.

  • Guest

    I can’t watch these videos. They’re just too ugly, and I know what they’re about.

    While we gay people and our supporters can’t bring the Russian economy to its knees, we can spread awareness among many people, and bring Russia the black eye it so richly deserves.

    I got off topic on the story about the Olympics that appeared here today. My comments were really more appropriate for this post. I won’t repost them, but you can read them here:

  • Bill_Perdue

    The violence in the RF sounds like the waves of violence that accompanied the passage of federal and state DOMAs spearheaded by Clintons and Bush2 and the violence that occurred when Obama galvanized the bigots and christer right when Prop 8 was up for a vote.

    The thugs doing the kidnapping and violence are validated by Putin and Russian christer cults who are little better than Scott Lively, Pat Robertson, Obama BBFs Rick Warren and Donnie McClurkin and the others who promote violence here and in Africa.

    The are 20-30 GLBT victims murdered in any given year in the US. So far this year there are two in Russia. We can only hope that they don’t descend to our level.

  • Glenden Brown

    In one of his books, Primo Levi wrote about the “first blow” – the first time someone strikes you for no reason other than they dislike you and they can hit you and they do it because they know no one will stop them and you can’t fight back. He describes it as a shock, as the moment the victim realizes civilization has fled.
    What’s happening in Russia, to gay persons, is evil. When I was in college, a professor assigned me the book Die Aussenseiter – The Outsiders – which discussed Jews, gays, and gypsies as outsiders onto whom many societies project their weaknesses and fears.

  • Mike_in_the_Tundra

    I’m a little confused. It was the vigilantes who posted the videos online. If your speaking of John’s decision to post them on Americablog, I don’t see a bunch of us going out to attack LGBT people.

  • cole3244

    i’m not sure if showing this on video is the proper response since that might encourage more incidents for the camera, report yes but video i’m perplexed.

  • Rambie

    Yes there are parallels with other hate groups and no country has even been completely free of these types of groups.

    However, John has already pointed out the additional similarities to the Nazi Germany. The KKK never ruled the government nor hosted the Olympics. Plus the IOC pulling a Neville “peace in our time” Chamberlain to make a deal with the Russians an additional parallel.

  • Badgerite

    There are words for this. One of them would be sadistic.

  • Badgerite

    I believe the operative words in your post are “as in Russia TODAY”. We are not talking about something that happened over 50 years ago. This is TODAY! And because it is TODAY, it requires an active response and push back.

  • nicho

    Obama doesn’t care. He’s too busy counting his payoffs from the corporatocracy.

  • SFExPat

    So Youtube removes the video that shows “content designed to harass, bully or threaten” by depicting actual harassment, bullying and threatening that is taking place???? Doesn’t anybody know what “context” is anymore?

  • Moderator4

    Please do not initially capitalize every word in your comment. It is annoying to others.

  • Meri Justus

    and when the winter Olympics are there all the athletes, and fans, will have to watch out for this it will not be a good thing, I hate it for the LGBT community in Russia something needs to be done to stop this. I hope one day they come across someone that is ready for their fight and shoots them all in the head, when they try to beat him.

  • megz

    Fuck You Russia And Your “Anti Gay” Bullshit Jist Because Your Scared Of Something You Dont U.derstand Or Have No Control Over? People Are Going To Be Part Of The Lgbt Community For A Long Long Time Get The Fuck Over It. Go Think Of Something Better To Do Woth Your God Damn Lofe. How Aboit Maybe Going After Pedophiles Who Pray On Boys Who Are Straight Or How About The Ones Who Pray On Little Girls? Or Is That Just Something You Can Just Look Over?

  • David Gantt

    Boycott Russia!!!!

  • caphillprof

    What would Simon Wiesenthal say?

  • Mighty

    I really hate feeling so helpless. I can only hope we can put enough pressure on to make them change but honestly I just don’t see it happening. Russia is not a real democracy. It is a pretend one. So how much pressure could the owner of Stoli and even say 4 or 5 other corporations really put on Putin and the Duma? I honestly don’t know. At least Russia has products we can boycott. I’d boycott African products as well if I knew any to boycott. Mugabe in Zimbabwe and various other countries in Africa are just as bad. I want to help. I don’t know what to do. I wrote HRC last year for some advice on the topic of helping LGBT people internationally but never got a response. Do we need more international organizations? If so what could they do?

  • FLL

    I won’t make a claim that I can’t support, so I have to say that the incidents like this happening all over Russia right now are not unique to European history. Yes, I think there are obvious parallels to the antisemitic violence in Germany during the early and mid-1930s. However, you can also find examples of violent campaigns like this during the heyday of America’s Ku Klux Klan during the 1920s or 1950s. We have examples from both European and American history.

  • davidinchelseama

    What the FUCK is going on in that country. Where isn’t President Obama speaking out on this one? Seriously, WHAT THE FUCK.

  • Indigo


  • Leota2

    There are no words for this . . .Actually, there are about a million but I am too ill to say them.
    This insanity must stop. Boycott.

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