Illinois fails to pass gay marriage bill, black caucus reportedly a problem

The Illinois Senate had already passed gay marriage legislation, the governor promised to sign it, but the House fell short in what was expected to be a victory today, but now has turned into defeat.

The Sun Times says the state House black caucus was a big part of the problem.

A similar scenario played out with Prop 8 in California four years ago (though some have tried to rewrite that history).  Yet, the black vote was not a problem in Maryland where the state voted in favor of marriage equality last November.  And with the support of President Obama, I’m sure a lot of people had hoped that we were beyond worrying about the religious right’s declared desire to drive fissures between the black and the gay community.

UPDATE: Geoffrey R. Stone, a University of Chicago law professor who clerked for Supreme Court Justice Brennan confirms that it was the Black Caucus:

By all accounts, a major reason for the disappointing outcome in the House was the opposition/hesitancy/anxiety of the House Black Caucus, which includes 20 African-American Democrats. Given the political makeup of the Illinois House, the House Black Caucus clearly had the numbers to dictate the outcome. And on Friday, the members of the House Black Caucus chose to derail the effort to legalize marriage for same-sex couples in Illinois

The usual liberalism of the House Black Caucus apparently does not extend to protecting the equality rights of gays and lesbians. That they pulled the plug on same-sex marriage in Illinois is therefore both disappointing and perplexing….

It is especially distressing that these African-American ministers would act in such clear disregard of the fundamental American principle of separation of church and state. “My God forbids this” was precisely the argument that white supremacists used to defend slavery, Jim Crow and especially anti-miscegenation laws that forbade blacks and whites to marry.

When white segregationists intoned that “God forbids the marriage of whites and blacks,” civil rights leaders — including African-American minister — courageously stood up for the right of individuals to marry whomever they loved — regardless of what others thought their God decreed. It is therefore particularly disheartening to see African-American ministers, who were once so eloquent in defending their own right to marry in the face of religious bigotry, now raising their voices so emphatically in order to deny that very same right to others.

From the Sun Times:

Harris and other supporters of same-sex marriage have had 105 days to amass the necessary 60 House votes to get the measure to Quinn’s desk since the Illinois Senate’s Valentine’s Day vote in support of the bill.

But that 60-vote threshold has been illusory despite high-profile encouragement from former President Bill Clinton and Obama, during his appearance in Chicago this week.

Stubborn resistance within the House Black Caucus, a 20-member bloc of African-American lawmakers who have faced a withering lobbying blitz against the plan from black ministers, has helped keep Harris’ legislation in check, with several House members still undecided.

“For me, there’s really no net gain for me one way or another. I’m hearing equally. Do I philosophically disagree? No, I don’t. But I would like to see absolute protections for churches and religious organizations so they’re not pushed into something they don’t want,” said Rep. Will Davis (D-Homewood). “For me, [a decision] will literally be when the bill comes up and after I sit and listen.”

inter-racial-marriagexSeveral in the caucus have urged Harris to push the issue into the fall veto session — after which nominating petitions for the 2014 ballot have to be filed — to bring up same-sex marriage for a House vote.

“The sense I have is blacks are tired of being lobbied or targeted. They’ve kind of turned back on some of the advocates and lobbyists and are asking, ‘Why don’t you get some Republicans?’” one high-level Democratic insider said Friday.

A further update – judging by some of the comments below, I thought this might be a good time to remind people of the words of Coretta Scott King, Martin Luther King’s widow:

Make Room At The Table for Lesbian and Gay People

Coretta Scott King, speaking four days before the 30th anniversary of her husband’s assassination, said Tuesday the civil rights leader’s memory demanded a strong stand for gay and lesbian rights. “I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice,” she said. “But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, ‘Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.’” “I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people,” she said. – Reuters, March 31, 1998.

Homophobia is Like Racism and Anti-Semitism

Speaking before nearly 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton Hotel, Coretta Scott King, the wife of the late Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Tuesday called on the civil rights community to join in the struggle against homophobia and anti-gay bias. “Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood,” King stated. “This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group.” – Chicago Defender, April 1, 1998, front page.

We have to launch a campaign against homophobia

We have to launch a national campaign against homophobia in the black community,” said Coretta Scott King, widow of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., the slain civil rights leader. – Reuters, June 8, 2001.

More on Friday’s loss in Illinois, from Freedom to Marry:

Springfield, Ill. – Today the Illinois House of Representatives failed to vote on the Religious Freedom and Marriage Fairness Act, which would have affirmed the freedom to marry for all same-sex couples in the state. The bill passed the state Senate in February, and Governor Pat Quinn, a strong supporter, had vowed to sign it into law.

Marc Solomon, Freedom to Marry’s national campaign director, released the following statement:

“After an overwhelming victory in the Senate, today’s failure by the Illinois House is a disgrace, especially for the thousands of committed same-sex couples who want and deserve to make the ultimate vow before their friends and family and spend the rest of their lives with the person they love, protected and supported by their marriage. Freedom to Marry is proud to be an active partner in Illinois Unites for Marriage, and is grateful for the groups that led the effort on the ground — the ACLU, Equality Illinois, and Lambda Legal. We also deeply appreciate the leadership of lead bill sponsors in the House and Senate, Rep. Greg Harris and Sen. Heather Steans. Make no mistake, we will fight and make our case until all Illinois families have the freedom to marry the person they love and until the legislative vote reflects the solid majority of Illinoisans and Americans who stand for treating their neighbors the way they want to be treated.”

Lambda Legal:

Illinois House of Representatives Fails to Vote On Marriage Bill

“This is a stunning failure in the Illinois House. Lambda Legal’s lawsuit
will move forward…”

(Springfield, IL, May 31, 2013) — At the close of the legislative session the Illinois House of Representatives did not call for a floor vote or advance The Religious Freedom and Marriage Fairness Act, the bill that would grant same-sex couples in Illinois the freedom to marry. Lambda Legal issued the following statement from Jim Bennett, Director of the Midwest Regional Office of Lambda Legal:

“This is a stunning failure in the Illinois House. This is too important to families across Illinois, and Lambda Legal’s lawsuit, Darby v. Orr which was filed a year ago yesterday will move forward.  The day is coming when Illinois will have the freedom to marry. Lambda Legal has been working in the Midwest for the respect of our relationships for 20 years and we won’t stop until same-sex couples in Illinois are treated with dignity and respect.

“We’d like to thank Sen. Steans for passing this bill in the Senate. We thank Rep. Harris, Rep. Cassidy and Rep. Mell, who have worked so hard to see this through. However, it’s unacceptable that our community did not at least get the vote Rep. Harris promised on the House floor. We have a right to know where our elected officials stand on the fundamental right to marry the person you love. We will continue to work with them to push toward passing this critical law as soon as possible.”

The momentum for the freedom to marry has been steadily building; in the past six months, Washington, Maine, Minnesota, Delaware and Rhode Island have joined 9 other jurisdictions in granting same-sex couples the freedom to marry (Connecticut, Iowa, Maryland, Massachusetts, New York, New Hampshire, Vermont, and Washington D.C.) President Obama and President Clinton have endorsed marriage for same-sex couples, and in Illinois Governor Pat Quinn and Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel have publicly supported marriage for lesbian and gay couples.

Follow me on Twitter: @aravosis | @americablog | @americabloggay | Facebook | Instagram | Google+ | LinkedIn. John Aravosis is the Executive Editor of AMERICAblog, which he founded in 2004. He has a joint law degree (JD) and masters in Foreign Service from Georgetown (1989); and worked in the US Senate, World Bank, Children's Defense Fund, the United Nations Development Programme, and as a stringer for the Economist. Frequent TV pundit: O'Reilly Factor, Hardball, World News Tonight, Nightline & Reliable Sources. Bio, .

Share This Post

  • Anonymous
  • Then you have to deal with the fact that half the population will undermine every step you take.

  • Bud

    A win is a win. Who cares by what margin. I’d rather have a win — by any margin — than a loss.

  • Bud

    The only people who matter are the tens of millions of same-sex couple who are denied their full equality in this vile, hypocritical country. We shouldn’t have to prove our worth by consensus. The degrading fact that we have to garner at least 51% legislative approval, as if “only our rights” must still be subjected to some popularity contest, is disgusting enough. I’m down with whatever majority we can muster. The fewer asses the GLBT community has to kiss the better. The rest of the losing 49% can stew in the own bitter hate while we wave the flag of victory over their amoral rotting corpses.

    As far as the Democratic Black Caucus goes in Illinois, I remind them that President Johnson on the eve of signing the Civil Rights Act, in the mid-sixties, lamented the fact that the Democrats had “probably lost the South for a generation”, but “it was the right thing to do”. Too bad so many Black legislators and voters lack the same kind of moral courage that many White liberals had which made the lives of their Black brothers and sister more tolerable. They had nothing to gain from it, except that “…it was the right thing to do”.

    At a measly thirteen percent of the population, African Americans would never have had equality in this country — if it were not for a majority of the non-Black population. It is time for the Black Caucus in Illinois as well as Black legislators and Black voters everywhere across the United States to start paying back some of the good will shown to them regarding their struggles for legal equality by people who where in the majority who had little to gain from their support other than the ethical obligation to do the right thing. They had their freedom returned to them, now it is the LGBT community (which encompasses all races and religions, as well as ethnicity and gender) that must be liberated from the yoke of legally sanctioned oppression.

  • Martin Ist

    when blacks were not allowed to marry, the country was too small…
    now they deny us to marry…
    how hipocritical!
    guess they are good for that!

  • Scripter

    Don’y know what you mean!


  • Scripter

    Don’y know what you mean!

  • TiffanyinTexas

    Bigotry is not what you think..it is what you do. If you work to suppress the rights of a person or a group of people because of something they can’t control — because of what they are — different than you– then you are a bigot.

    A shame that even people who are discriminated against can find a group of people even lower on the social ladder whom they can discriminate against.

  • I’d rather have a narrow defeat than a narrow victory. A narrow defeat can be turned into a stuning victory further down the track if we win the hearts and minds, whereas a narrow victory reminds us how many are against us and will inevitably lead to civil disobedience and non-compliance.

  • Alfred Mimms

    I am honestly sick of reading comments that support the blatantly bigoted and biased caucus with charges that everyone in opposition to them is a racist. It is easy to use that term without having much evidence of such to nullify any further discourse but speaking as a creole I know this fragile tactic as a sign of intellectual laziness. Nonsense like this reinforces that idea that all black people are a monolith when it comes to issues that require any form of complex thinking or critical analysis. So before you point the finger and charge anyone in opposition how about not fulfilling some of the most damning stereotypes?

  • Alfred Mimms

    Actually, many of us in the A/A that have a brain are disgusted by acts like this. Labeling everyone who doesn’t agree with you as a “racist” only sows unneeded discord because of your intellectual laziness and unwillingness to see the irony of the situation. Please do everyone a favor and go play in traffic.

  • Ninong

    What does black community development have to do with immigration reform?

  • DjuanWash

    The sanctity of marriage? Marriage is a business contract it was never about love. Where have you been?

  • Grrrrrrrr

    kudos to the black caucus and stop letting folks thrust their lifestyles and views upon us!

  • Ed Adams

    lol. that’s a silly analysis. we’re not interested in the white republicans whose party platform is against it. we’re interested in analyzing defections in the democratic party only. it’s the democrats who have to get ssm passed. any republican defections are welcome, but not to be counted on. so we’re interested especially in the black evangelical democrats who feel free to stray away from democratic party line when it comes to lgbts but want full democratic support for issues disproportionately impacting the african-american community. even if you accept the probabably inflated post-game support of the black caucus in the nbc article (leading up to friday’s vote only 3 or 4 had declared support according to most journalistic sources), black democratic opposition was still 10% higher than white democratic opposition. and of course latino democratic opposition was 0%.

  • Sweetie

    Read what Coretta Scott King said. You might learn something.

  • Sweetie

    Let me know when you decide to read what I actually wrote and respond to that.

    If you think I’m supposed to be ashamed of the fact that people get angry at people who irrationally discriminate (heterosexists), then you need to think more.

  • Sweetie

    Ad hominem is not a rebuttal. If you are going to hurl accusations of racism around, you have the responsibility to provide some shred of actual proof.

  • gn

    At least you admit the animosity. I don’t really care that much (I’ve long known about the issues with racism within the gay community), just making the point that it’s ridiculous of a large black site to have driven any traffic to a place like this. I believe that you have the right to feel any way you want about black people in peace, so long as you don’t act in ways which violate others. Life’s short, have fun.

  • Anonymous

    Using another vote as an opportune cover for your anti-African racism. And yall wonder why most SGLs don’t support your ugly asses and this HRC bullshit.

  • Sweetie

    The US Supreme Court is a whimsical archaism that has ceased to concern me.

  • Sweetie

    Exactly, although one would not know it from his writings about Islam.

  • Sweetie

    What, that there are no gay African Americans

    None who have gay family and friends

    None who have gay coworkers they value

    Or teachers, doctors, road builders, clarinet carvers… ad infinitum?

  • Sweetie

    “you’re saying that your group’s political progress is dependent upon 100%”

    straw man

    “not all of our community agrees with your take on the issues”


    “would approach the black community with roses rather than venom”

    I have news for you. There are gay African American people. There are some who have gay family and friends. There are some who have gay colleagues they value highly. There are some who appreciate the hard work of gay people that have enriched their lives, from the roads they built to the lights they use.

    You want venom? Watch TV when a group of African American male preachers discuss homosexuality and one says “Leviticus is all one needs to know.” Or, listen to Tracey Morgan’s “joke” about stabbing his son to death for the crime of being gay, and the faulty logic people have trotted out to defend that.

  • Sweetie

    There does tend to be animus toward people who discriminate against others. And, there is a problem in the African American community with heterosexism and homophobia, a problem that shouldn’t be overlooked by pointing at general heterosexism and homophobia. It needs to be dealt with. Mrs. King was particularly impressive in this regard.

  • Sweetie

    Look up the tu quoque fallacy.

    While it may be accurate to claim that the influence of the black caucus is too minor to highlight, the fact that there is a white majority does not necessarily negate what may have been a critical influence.

    This is similar to the claims Democrats used to disguise their refusal to put a real public option into the health bill due to the president’s once secret deal with the industry to kill it. They tried to hide behind Republicans, pretending that their opposition was what really killed it. http://www.salon.com/2010/03/12/democrats_36/

  • TeaTime

    “But for some reason, we can never dare suggest that it’s possible that black voters, or in this case black legislators, weren’t there on a gay issue.”

    Conversely, we can never dare suggest that it’s possible that “White” voters, or in this case “White” legislators, weren’t there on a gay issue.

    “I think we’d do better if we stopped trying to shut down conversations that makes us uncomfortable, such as this notion that the black community doesn’t struggle with homophobia.”

    What’s inherent in the above statement is that the ‘white’ community does not struggle with homophobia, which is patently untrue. If you are going to make the SB10 defeat a “BLACK” issue, then I can make it a “WHITE” issue. Let’s put everyone in their respective group. Here we go:

    WHITES make up approximately 90+ members of the Illinois House (118-Members). It was unequivocally and completely within ‘White’ legislator’s hands to pass SB10 (60-needed), in a landslide, with no votes from any other group (Black, Asian, or Hispanic). YET, IT DID NOT PASS. With that being said, this then squarely falls in the lap of the WHITE homophobic legislators and their homophobic constituents.

    WHITES, unlike any other racial group, are in the unique position of holding the key to the lock (SB10 passage). If they (whites) refuse to open the lock, you blame the key-holder(s). Unless, it’s convenient to blame someone else.

  • gn

    Well Becca, in order to be an abused spouse, we’d have to be married. And despite the attempts to force a shotgun wedding (“we’re all in the same civil rights struggle! we’re this generation’s civil rights!”), the black and gay communities aint married lol. The proper response to a group who you need for political progress is respect. Clearly in short supply here.

  • gn

    There are definitely high profile gay people stating on record that if immigration reform passes without a provision which they full well know is a bill-killer, that they will withdraw support from the Democratic party. The CBC is fighting for a concession which is within reason and will not destroy this legislative effort. There’s standing up for one’s interests, and there’s being a spoiler and demanding that an entire coalition work for your agenda at all times and on all things or you’ll blow the whole thing up. I think that the second is nothing to brag about. The issues with the Democratic party taking the black vote for granted are very long-standing and have nothing to do with the pragmatism of black voters. It’s just easier to cater to people who are more privileged and some politicians choose to do just that. The Democratic party is not a meritocracy with regards to which groups the leadership chooses to cater to.

  • Indeed. ;)

  • gn

    I never said that black people are above criticism. We’re not. I noted that there is a jump to single us out as you did here. And I do believe that some of this is motivated an animus (hello, have you read these comments), as well as a sense of entitlement.

  • Also, I didn’t see any gay leaders calling for immigration reform to be killed.

    Though I might add, it might not be a source of pride for you that your leaders in Congress aren’t better standing up for your interests in the immigration bill. You’re signaling that your interests don’t matter, and that people can exclude them from major legislation with impunity. So, I’d be careful how loudly I’d brag about that.

  • For good reason, I might add ;-)

  • Edited. This website automatically flags and places a hold on comments when either of the two words that you used are written out.

  • gn

    There’s no way that the CBC is going to derail immigration reform and every single participant in that article knows it. That’s sausage-making. My statement stands: there’s no credible threat coming from black people that there will be any sort of withdrawal of support or votes for the Democratic party as a result of immigration reform despite the fact that we’re not getting much out of it, much less a demand to include a provision which is an absolute and known deal-killer.

  • So far, neither you nor this Rikyrah commenter have presented anything like a sourced remark or comment. When either of you — or any of these others — raises an objection, it is answered. Yet you ignore the actual answer to bring up more red herrings.

    By the way, the proper response to a knife in the back isn’t roses or to thank your betrayer. That’s what abused spouses do.

    If you don’t like this blog or the people who comment here — well, nobody’s making you stick around, bub.

  • “For one example of several: hmm, there aren’t any prominent, credible black Democrats calling on the community to withdraw votes and support from Dems for passing immigration reform unless it includes a massive grant for black community development, knowing good and damn well this would kill the bill. ”

    Uh, wanna bet? http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/how-democrats-could-blow-immigration-20130502

  • gn, we criticize everyone. You just can’t carve out an exclusion from criticism in politics for anyone who’s black simply because there are racists out there who target blacks. Yes, there are. And there are people who target women, and gays, and Jews, and Latinos and immigrants and more. It doesn’t mean we should stop holding any of them accountable if it’s deserved. But for some reason, we can never dare suggest that it’s possible that black voters, or in this case black legislators, weren’t there on a gay issue. I’m gay, I get that it’s tempting to always perceive criticism as being motivated by animus – but it’s not always motivated by animus.

    As for antipathy, you’ll note that the commenters got nasty when folks got nasty to us first. So I’d argue that that’s one more reason having a knee-jerk “it’s racism!” reaction is dangerous, or at least counter-productive. It takes allies and turns them into not-so-much allies.

  • gn

    Oh, so even putting aside my skepticism of your premise, you’re saying that your group’s political progress is dependent upon 100% or at least consensus political support and cover from black people even though like every other community, not all of our community agrees with your take on the issues? Is that right? Most benevolent people looking at such a scenario would approach the black community with roses rather than venom.

    Re: this strong support for black and latino issues. For one example of several: hmm, there aren’t any prominent, credible black Democrats calling on the community to withdraw votes and support from Dems for passing immigration reform unless it includes a massive grant for black community development, knowing good and damn well this would kill the bill. Can you think of anyone from another group who may being doing something similar right now, and who are the main voice from “the left” looking to basically kill immigration reform or punish Dems for passing it? Gee who could that be. Who could acting the fool for not getting their way on immigration reform despite receiving grossly disproportionate attention to their issues?

    This comments section reeks of entitlement, privilege, and profound disrespect. lol at “journalism”!

  • What Rikyrah said is NOT true. Had the Illinois House Black Caucus voted for the bill, they’d have had enough votes to pass, as Skeptical Cicada helpfully demonstrated using this newfangled thing we call mathematics.

    As for depending on each other — that’s what civilized people do. We LGBTs vote for issues important to the African American or Latino communities or for other minorities, and it really isn’t unreasonable to hope and expect they’d return the favor. This is how politics works, and how any minority can manage to get policies passed for issues important to them.

    Instead, bigotry against gay people ruled the day. And among IL House Reps who would never be in danger of losing their seats if they’d chosen to do the compassionate and right thing. And in the interviews and statements linked heavily throughout John’s article, these Representatives made it clear that it was Christian right religious pressure that caused them to cave.

    As for Rikyrah’s comment, did you see any sourced information, any links? Or just an assertion? Right — just a bald assertion, which you chose to believe over the many confirmed sources that say otherwise, as well as simple math. And what John Aravosis here was doing is this thing called journalism.

  • Hugs to you, too, Pappyvet. And thank you.

  • AZ DC

    Very sad,

  • Butch1

    I couldn’t agree more.

  • Butch1

    That’s interesting; isn’t Glenn gay himself?

  • gn

    Is what she said true or not? I have a skepticism for some liberals at this point due to threads such as this one, much less depictions of African Americans in the media. So show me the facts, and please justify your isolation of black legislators for your two minutes hate when it’s clear that numerous groups simply weren’t on board with the bill at this time. That’s one. Two: if you are dependent on black people to vote for your initiatives despite the fact that similar to the rest of the country, black people are divided on those issues, what justifies the insults, the rage, the frothing at the mouth, and the wholescale appropriation of our legacy and heritage (extremely disrespectful and I believe intentionally so)?

    I won’t be making any additional comments and wouldn’t have ventured into this thread had it not been inexplicably linked to at a large black site. Given the level of antipathy here, I question the common sense of whomever did so.

  • Well, the Chicago Sun-Times says it’s true, so does the Chicago Trib, and a Univ of Chicago law professor who worked for Justice Brennan, one of the most progressive members of the Supreme Court. I don’t think it’s racist to quote the Chicago Trib and the Sun-Times and a law professor who’s a big liberal.

  • Ninong

    You probably have great-grandparents who grew up during World War II. I have uncles who fought in World War II and great-grandparents who grew up during the Civil War.

  • pappyvet

    I’m 60,my hubby died 2 years ago. Was in San Fran after the Navy,saw a lot of the deal go down,part of some of it. Try being a Gay VietNam Vet,you pretty much get shit from everyone. LOL I can laugh though because I understand, And I can state as Fact that not one of my gay friends either old or new ever held me up to ridicule for my service. A former schoolmate however,threw a bag of crap at the service star my parents had in their picture window. Threw it so hard it broke the window. It was the same service star my Mom had in the window of their apartment when Dad was in the Army Air Corp.
    To make a long story short,the guy’s Dad confronted him in front of my parents,paid for the window but didnt come down on the kid because he said it wasnt the service star ,or the war,it was the disgrace because he was sure I was …….”Funny,” Many hearts were broken that day. We have to get this taken care of quickly. Hugs to you and your wife Doll !

  • gn

    His comment is entirely appropriate for the setting. The link to this “piece” from mediatakeout is what’s inappropriate. What idiot would send black commenters to a place like this?

  • gn

    Racist drivel. I love that Rikyrah’s comment noting that every black legislator could have voted for this bill and it would have failed was downrated (gotta keep this place nice and fact-free when whipping up the mob). Whomever linked to this from mediatakeout needs their head examined. Off to the shower after reading the comments here…and last note: if you think you’re dependent upon black people as a crutch and for votes, non-racist people would consider using persuasion, appeals, and a friendly appeal for a mutually-beneficial coalition rather than threats, stereotypes, hatred and rage. Stay classy folks!

  • pappyvet

    My God you’re old! but then so am I…….My God I”m old ! 22!!
    Welcome aboard, we oldtimers dont eat much ;]

  • Ouch

  • A lot makes sense now. You are twenty two years old. I am nearly half a century older than you and that perspective is quite different. I would hope you come by here often and the conversation continues for it is your generation who is our hope for the future. I apologize for thinking that you were a snarky troll.

  • pappyvet

    Clearly and sadly

  • pappyvet

    At least they were allowed to live as less than a person

  • Who I Is

    Lol and I am black. Did you read my other comment to you? I’m sick of nyggers (ignorant people. Check the dictionary) thinking slavery was the only terrible civil indecency but gays aren’t just as persecuted. I’m black and gay so I’m a double minority. I find racist white gays don’t tend to be open to me being their friends due to my color, and brothers don’t want to be cool with me in public (besides the dudes I’ve been cool with for years). It sucks.

  • :-O

  • Oh, and in case it wasn’t completely clear…


  • pappyvet

    OH my ! LOL HAve you ever been to a turkish bath…..have you ever been in a cockpit

  • EdA

    Sorry, Karmanot. I wish. It’s a true story; hence the link. And here’s another one, keeping in mind the possibility that people borrow from one another:


    Of course, it’s quite possible that his wife went out of her way to publicly humiliate herself instead of just getting a divorce by saying they didn’t get along.

  • ChitownKev

    You, when I run across ignorant black people like yourself, I simply cringe…

    and walk on the other side of the street and try to act like I don’t know you.

  • ChitownKev

    Oh, Fuck you…

  • Sweetie


  • Sweetie

    Everything is natural.

  • My wife was born in ’43, so most of what she remembers as the immediate aftermath of the war. Which, back then, as she says, you didn’t have to specify which one.

  • Sweetie

    Legitimate, Biblical, and reason are three terms that can’t be combined in the positive.

  • Fair enough. But in 20 years, many of the people you’re corresponding with right now, here in this thread, will be dead of old age.

    I’m 50. My wife is 70. We can’t keep waiting. It was Dr. Martin Luther King Jr himself who often said that justice delayed is justice denied.

  • Indeed.

    Sexual orientation and gender identity: By all current scientific evidence, something people are simply born with.

    Being an uneducated, fact- and science-denying, intolerant bigot? Now that is a lifestyle choice.

  • str8 facts

    Wow. Sometimes it’s hard to realize that all of that wasn’t so long ago.

  • Ninong

    Some of us here remember Pearl Harbor and lived through WWII, with food ration coupons and black-out drills and gas rationing and all that good stuff. We always used up our monthly sugar coupons and saved some in the back of the pantry so that we could make fudge for Christmas. That was always special. And we remember having to be quiet while FDR was on the radio giving one of his fireside chats.

  • str8 facts

    Yes like how ppl don’t choose their orientation I didn’t choose the year I came into existence. Besides in 20 years gay marriage will be legal.

  • Sweetie

    And his wife, in a speech talking about blood shed from Selma to Stonewall.

  • Sweetie

    The first point is probably Glenn Greenwald’s biggest blind spot. He writes again and again about the persecution of Muslims and criticized atheism (“new atheism”) for supporting it but I have yet to see him adequately address Muslim persecution of gays. Islam apparently mandates heterosexism but atheism does not.

  • Realtalk

    The sanctity of marriage shouldn’t be degraded because of the people who don’t take it serious. Is all of us to blame for the crime rate?

  • He’s assuredly a troll.

  • Realtalk

    Oh please you say? Again I could care less who you or anyone else is sleeping with but you comparing something that a person can all of a sudden decide to be, to something people have no choice but to be is TOTAL FOOLISHNESS!!!! You’d do better not comparing a decision to an unchangeable reality cause coming out for many is a decision but being Black isn’t.

  • This explains much.

    In about two more decades, you’ll likely come to realize that fundamental civil rights can and should include more than basic animal survival needs.

  • :-}

  • str8 facts

    Your Black????? Sure…. I wish the moderator deletes your disgusting comment. Black or not, your comment is sickening. Black or whatever.

  • str8 facts

    Wow you have a lot of demeaning things to say. So very misinformed of black people its very sad. Their are great ppl and monsters in every group of ppl. It’s unfortunate for ppl to die for being gay or race or whatever. However you are very misinformed most ppl I ever encountered who are “Down Low” happen to be self hating preppy white boys who care too much what ppl think about them. Or nasty old married men who are 40 or 50 trying to get at me and friends offering us money. Also I did NOT say white ppl are evil, i don’t feel that way at all and its insulting. Why would have my friends be white if I thought they were evil doesn’t make sense. The Black ppl I know live out and loud. Well at least where I live in the SF Bay Area. I’m not very familiar with what goes on in DC. The only thing you said that was partially true was that black ppl have not historically supported gay rights. Instead of trying to belittle them and being afraid of them as if they might hurt you. You can try a little outreach I bet you’ll be pleasantly surprised by what happens.

  • Ninong

    Wow, 22! My younger brother has a great-granddaughter who is 21.

    So you don’t remember segregation in the 1940’s and ’50’s, or Brown v. Board of Education, or the Civil Rights marches or the two white boys and one black boy who were murdered by KKK-wannabes in Mississippi and buried in a levee, do you? They were murdered for the sin of promoting civil rights for blacks.

    Well, I may not be black but I was born in the 1930’s in the Deep South and I remember all of that.

  • OMG Did you mean that to be hilarious?

  • str8 facts

    1964!?!?!?!? Omg that’s the Stone Age!!!!! Lol my mother wasn’t even born. I was born in 1990. I’m 22..

  • EdA

    Dear Common,

    I think that even apart from being a bigot, you are rather confused.

    According to recent guesstimates that I have seen, straight men practice anal sex (which is what I assume you are talking about) at about the same rates as gay men. Except that it may very well be that they practice it regardless of whether their partners want it.

    You might want to take the example of Dr. David Hager as an example. Dr. Hager, a very well known Kentucky gynecologist, came to prominence as a Bush appointee to an FDA advisory committee on women’s health. Both as a Bush appointee and as a religious nutcase, Hager opposed contraception and sex. But rather oddly, especially for a gynecologist, when he tried to have sex with his wife after she went to sleep, he frequently couldn’t tell the difference between her vagina and her anus.


  • Butch1

    Which boat did you come over on? The Pinta, Nina or the Santa Maria? Or were you one of the Puritans that landed here? If you could thump that bible any harder you would destroy it. Go preach somewhere else; we’ve heard this tripe over and over and quite frankly, it’s getting rather boring.

    For goodness sake, use spell check and learn how to spell Caesar. Was that too hard for you?

  • Butch1

    The only problem is that she chooses to be ignorant.

  • Ninong

    Don’t forget that as late as 1956 the Catholic Church was still using physical castration as a method for getting rid of homosexuality as well as punishment for boys who reported to the police that they had been sexually molested by the priests at their Dutch boarding school.

    At least 10 teenage boys or young men under the age of 21 were surgically
    castrated “to get rid of homosexuality” while in the care of the Dutch Roman
    Catholic Church in the 1950s.

    “The NRC Handelsblad newspaper identified Henk Heithuis who was castrated in
    1956, while a minor, after reporting priests to the police for abusing him in a
    Catholic boarding home.”


    P.S. — We won’t even mention the crimes committed by the Catholic Church in Ireland.

  • Butch1

    Only bigots call it perversion.

    You don’t WANT to explain it to your child because you CANNOT explain it without telling your child disinformation. You lie to your child and eventually your child will find out the truth and then your child will consider YOU a liar or a deceiver in not telling the truth from the beginning. How will that make YOU feel? Do you want to lose that bond with your child because you have a prejudice against gays and lesbians and you are blind with hatred so much that you would rather lie to your child or rather not tell them anything at all? Perhaps, you should seek out professional help to find out why you have this deep seeded illness. The church is mostly responsible for planting these lies about us but you are an adult and can remedy that with education. All the professional groups ( e.g. AMA, APA and others who know of what they speak, ) have said that being gay is just a variation of normal. It is not a perversion or a sickness as you would like to think it is. When you refuse to acknowledge that fact you are going against professional knowledge with only your personal feelings and superstitious religious feelings.

    I trust the professionals over an “invisible faerie” any day.

  • Butch1


  • Butch1


  • Butch1

    Damn! . . . see what I missed not staying home to be schooled? ;-)

  • Butch1

    I’m glad you still have the energy. ;-)

  • Average, but the rate of single parent mothers is very high.

  • “I’m not for gay marriage but I love and respect gays and if anything think it should be a civil union not a marriage” Oh please don’t wave that bloody old flag of hypocrisy. It was not so long ago that blacks were loved just like family, but only counted as 3/5 of a person and women not counted as human beings at all.

  • Ninong

    Speaking of the King family, remember when LBJ used to play those tapes Edgar gave him of MLK’s motel romps? LBJ got a big kick out of those.
    Reminds me of back when JFK got shot and a couple of days later one of LBJ’s closest pals asked him what he intended to do about Edgar. LBJ’s response was classic: “Nothing! Better to have him inside the tent pissin’ out than outside pissin’ in.”

  • Ninong

    You mean to tell me Bishop Eddie Long had more boytoys than Pastor Ted Haggard? Oh, my lord! Say it ain’t so.

    Pastor Ted was a proven prophet, too: “I know what you did last night, and if you give me a thousand dollars, I won’t tell your wife. Hahahaha!”

    Bishop Eddie was just trying help those young men get on the right track. So happy to see that he finally settled that little matter and now Bishop Eddie is back doing the Lords’s work and all those young men are driving around town in brand new cars. Bishop Eddie was just paying them for past services to his ministry.

  • Ninong

    But how could that be? I thought only the white evangelicals, like Pastor Ted Haggard, preached one thing and did another? “I know what you did last night and if you give me a thousand dollars I won’t tell your wife. Hahahaha!”
    How prophetic was that? So I guess he really was a prophet after all. And in his spare time he used to take some of the choir boys with him and they would visit “outside” gay bars, where they would sprinkle holy oils (aka Crisco). Just ask former-Attorney General Ashcroft about anointing oneself with Crisco before undertaking a new assignment. Safer than handling snakes.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    That’s a nice evasive response.

    Let me ask you again. Which of those downstate districts is more pro-gay than the Chicago districts of the derailers? Is it in the downstate districts or the Chicago districts where voting for marriage poses the greater threat of Republicans taking the seat from Democrats? Which downstate reps do you want replaced with Republicans so that members of the Black Caucus, who won’t be, can sniff disdainfully at faggots?

    Never mind. I get that you’re dodging because the answers fatally undermine your agenda of shrieking racism.

  • Wasn’t trying to get you—-just communicate and draw parallels, The struggle of GLTBQ to gain human dignity began in earnest with Christian pogroms from the 4th century to this very day. What the Catholic Church couldn’t accomplish the Southern Baptist intends, thus the sensitivity and the presumption of what would otherwise be common cause for civil rights.

  • Who I Is

    Why do some of us black take a huge stance against gays not being equally treated when we let out community go to SHID when we were free. Theres not pride in our black community, so your arguement is void ESPCIALLY since gay marriage would more likely then not allow gays to be more open and know they’re perfectly normal, thus decreasing down low or MSM behaviour.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    The U.S. Supreme Court has declared marriage a fundamental constitutional right about a dozen times, str8 bigot.

  • Who I Is

    Nyggers these days (I’m black)

  • Bingo!

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Yes, yes, we know, dear. Gays are evil, vile, brutal racists, and blacks just love gays more than life itself. Why do you standard-issue apologists for black bigotry think you’re convincing anyone with that nonsense?

    Try researching the history of antigay hate crimes in DC over the past decade, including the failure of the black prosecutorial establishment to prosecute young black males for “simply” killing or maiming homosexuals. Sounds a little like segregationist Mississippi to me, and I don’t find it as hilarious as you apparently do. But, then, we know exactly what you are.

    Move along, apologist. Your skin doesn’t give your distortions any credibility.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    I stopped reading at “perversion.” You’re just a common bigot.

  • Exactly. It wasn’t as if the Roman Empire was formed and rose to become one of the greatest and most technologically advanced of the Bronze Age empires (I mean, heck, they had aqueducts and sewers) and THEN adopted sexual practices that previously had been deemed universally deviant and immoral.

    They were that way all along, and were fine with homosexuality from the beginning until the end when, as I said, the Christians took over and began imposing all their repressive dogmas. After which the Roman Empire collapsed.

  • FLL

    Yeah, homophobes never add 2 + 2 when it comes to the timeline. Things go great for hundreds of years, then the Christian emperors take over, and the whole place goes to the dogs within 50 years.

  • The other observation I nearly made is that the Roman empire didn’t really start to fall hard until the Christians took over.

  • You’re right, people like her never do ‘get it.’ And assaults and murders of gay people continue all over the world, ofttimes sanctioned by the very laws of the countries in which LGBTs are being executed.

  • FLL

    He’s a fan of Roman gladiator movies! I should have guessed. Right on the money, Becca.

  • I’ll wager the reason you claim to be such an expert on ancient Roman and Greek culture is because you have a gladiator movie collection that fills an entire set of bookshelves and dream nightly of wrestling Greco-Roman style with Spartacus himself.

  • Ed Adams

    the essential point is that both gays and blacks continue to face important discrimination. that should be the main issue, not quibbling over equal vs similar. blacks, however, at the present time have more judicial, legislative and constitutional protections than do gays who can still be not hired, fired, and denied housing in 29 states.

  • Ninong

    Are you old enough to remember that back in 1964 the citizens of California passed a proposition that would allow owners of real estate to discriminate in renting and selling their real property?

    In other words, two-thirds of the voters passed a referendum that would allow an owner of an apartment building to refuse to rent to a black person simply because they didn’t like the color of his skin. Or maybe a homeowner in Piedmont or Atherton would refuse to sell his house to a black person because it would infuriate the neighbors. Remember that one?

    It was ruled unconstitutional and overturned! So even when the citizens of the great state of California pass a new law that doesn’t make it constitutional. It can always be overturned, either by the California State Supreme Court, or by the United States Courts if it violates federal constitutional rights.

  • FLL

    In reference to your second paragraph, you can send your child to a so-called “Christian school” or even home school your child, but it’s a losing battle because your child would still be living in American society, where legal recognition of same-sex couples is happening sooner rather than later. Since I’m guessing you don’t want to learn Russian and move to Russia, what’s your alternative? Live in some Christian Identity compound in the woods of northern Idaho? Bummer.

  • Yes, he is assuming that because they are. All civil rights struggles are different and equal. Disabilities are different from race which are different from anti-religious bigotry which is different from sexism and homophobia – and they’re all the same wrong when it comes to civil rights. AT least that’s what Coretta Scott King says, and I listen to her when it comes to civil rights: http://americablog.com/2009/04/coretta-scott-king-racism-and-homophobia-are-the-same-thing.html

  • Ninong

    “However are some bigoted bc they believe something to be true?”

    Of course they are! Their personal “beliefs” have absolutely nothing to do with the individual rights of other citizens in this country because our Constitution guarantees freedom from religion as well as freedom of religion. A person’s deeply held religious conviction does not give them the right to impose that deeply-held religious conviction on others, which is what they’re trying to do when they bring up all the biblical BS. You won’t find the word God anywhere in the Constitution.

    “Separate but equal” was a deeply-held religious conviction in the Deep South when I was growing up. Very, very deeply-held! That didn’t make it right.

  • str8 facts

    Dam you got me. Lol

  • str8 facts

    Are you asking me for my personal opinion or my legal opinion. Doma is related bc it’s currently before the scotus. DOMA will be found unconstitutional bc it violates the 14th amendment and the Federal government does not have the constitutional authority to regulate marriage. Prop 8 is a little more complex. The issue at hand is do the people California have the constitutional authority to take away a right from a group of ppl. Not if should gay marriage be legal. In this sense I think the Supreme Court will say prop 8 is legal bc in the state of California we can change our laws and alter our constitution through the initiative and the referendum.

  • Well you don’t really have a choice about your child, they’re either going to be gay or straight and there’s nothing you can do about it, other than love them. Do you think you have that in you, to actually love your own child unconditionally? It doesn’t sound like it.

    Oh, and Coretta Scott King disagrees with you:

    Make Room At The Table for Lesbian and Gay People

    Coretta Scott King, speaking four days before the 30th anniversary of her husband’s assassination, said Tuesday the civil rights leader’s memory demanded a strong stand for gay and lesbian rights. “I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice,” she said. “But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, ‘Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.’” “I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people,” she said. – Reuters, March 31, 1998.

    Homophobia is Like Racism and Anti-Semitism

    Speaking before nearly 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton Hotel, Coretta Scott King, the wife of the late Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Tuesday called on the civil rights community to join in the struggle against homophobia and anti-gay bias. “Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood,” King stated. “This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group.” – Chicago Defender, April 1, 1998, front page.

    MLK’s Struggle Parallels The Gay Rights Movement

    Quoting a passage from her late husband’s writing, Coretta Scott King reaffirmed her stance on gay and lesbian rights Tuesday at a luncheon celebrating the 25 anniversary of the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund, a national gay rights organization. “We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny . . . I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be,” she said, quoting her husband. “I’ve always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy,” King told 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton, days before the 30th anniversary of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.’s assassination on April 4, 1968. She said the civil rights movement “thrives on unity and inclusion, not division and exclusion.” Her husband’s struggle parallels that of the gay rights movement, she said. – Chicago Sun Times, April 1, 1998, p.18.

    Mrs. King is Outspoken Supporter of Gay and Lesbian People

    “For many years now, I have been an outspoken supporter of civil and human rights for gay and lesbian people,” King said at the 25th Anniversary Luncheon for the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund…. “Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement,” she said. “Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions.” – Chicago Tribune, April 1, 1998, sec.2, p.4.

    Sexual Orientation is a Fundamental Human Rights

    We have a lot more work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and discrimination. I say “common struggle” because I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry and discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination. – Coretta Scott King, remarks, Opening Plenary Session, 13th annual Creating Change conference of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Atlanta, Georgia, November 9, 2000.

    We Need a National Campaign Against Homophobia

    “We have to launch a national campaign against homophobia in the black community,” said Coretta Scott King, widow of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., the slain civil rights leader. – Reuters, June 8, 2001.

    Justice is Indivisible

    For too long, our nation has tolerated the insidious form of discrimination against this group of Americans, who have worked as hard as any other
    group, paid their taxes like everyone else, and yet have been denied equal protection under the law…. I believe that freedom and justice cannot be parceled out in pieces to suit political convenience. My husband, Martin Luther King, Jr. said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” On another occasion he said, “I have worked too long and hard against segregated public accommodations to end up segregating my moral concern. Justice is indivisible.” Like Martin, I don’t believe you can stand for freedom for one group of people and deny it to others. So I see this bill as a step forward for freedom and human rights in our country and a logical extension of the Bill of Rights and the civil rights reforms of the 1950’s and ‘60’s. The great promise of American democracy is that no group of people will be forced to suffer discrimination and injustice. – Coretta Scott King, remarks, press conference on the introduction of ENDA, Washington, DC, June 23, 1994


  • I said “many black communities” not 40 million individuals. Neither the gay or black communities are monolythic. “However are some bigoted because they believe something to be true?” This belief is problematic because it is a fallacy of logic. For example Nazi’s believe it was true that Jews were sub-human and thus worthy of extermination as racially inferior. Such beliefs were also waged against the black community. In fact the prestigious Rockefeller Foundation sponsored eugenics that included blacks in those studies.

  • Ninong

    We were discussing the Prop. 8 case in California that is now on appeal before SCOTUS.

    DOMA is a different situation entirely and the premise of DOMA is that the individual states have the power to regulate marriage and therefore they cannot be forced to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other states if those marriages are not legal in their state. It’s Tenther sort of thing.

    So DOMA is not unconstitutional on the grounds that you suggest because it specifically grants the states the right to do whatever they please as far as marriage is concerned, including their right to refuse to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other jurisdictions.

    DOMA is unconstitutional because it denies Due Process and Equal Protection to same-sex couples legally married in states that recognize same-sex marriage. They have a consitutional right to be treated equally by the Federal government. DOMA violates the 14th Amendment; it doesn’t violate the 10th Amendment.

    SCOTUS may very well end up ruling that the Federal government must recognize legal same-sex unions peformed in those jurisdictions that allow them without requiring that all the other states recognize them. However, that would be a violation of the Equal Faith and Credit Clause of Article IV, which requires each state to recognize the judicial proceedings of every other state. DOMA makes an exception to that Article IV requirement, which is obviously ridiculous on its face.

  • str8 facts

    Lol. Ok.

  • str8 facts

    Words lose their power if they are just causally thrown about. I will admit I am biased but at the end of the day it doesn’t matter.

  • str8 facts

    Hmmmm. You have good points. I’m afraid that I understand American history a little too well actual and I have admitted before and shall I say it again there are similarities between the two struggles. But from my point of view they are unequal. That doesn’t mean that I don’t accept marriage equality. I just view one as more difficult and unjust than the other. Perhaps I’m biased towards african American issues bc I am one. However I am gay too so wouldn’t I be biased towards gay issues as well? Your comment that “institutional bigotry among many black communities” is blatantly offensive and slightly racist. You just generalized a group of more than 40 million individuals. The African American community has many issues just like every other group of ppl in the world. However are some bigoted bc they believe something to be true? I don’t think so.

  • You and others like you are making the equivalency and when you do we respond giving you the courtesy of the premise.

  • Ed Adams

    lol. your stance is clearly bigoted. you want to be offended by gays, especially those in casual conversations using sloppy rhetoric and disputing classification of things that are same/similar. you would be less vulnerable to accusations of bigotry if instead of your supposed outrage you made clear that yes there are important similarities. instead you focus on the issue of the word equate. that’s petty and seems to reveal your true motivation.

  • Don’t worry Mr. scaredy no self respecting GLTBQ within a hundred miles of you would even consider touching you without a hazard protocol. But, you probably know this already because your wide stance always goes unanswered.

  • Ed Adams

    lol. homosexuality is 100% normal and natural. homosexuality is intrinsically neither more or less moral than heterosexuality.

    you’re the one who is blind to the facts. that has made you delusional and an anti-gay bigot.

    i certainly hope that you have no contact with children so they don’t become infected with your ignorance and your bigotry.

  • str8 facts

    Those are different times and different societies with different values. They are not looking to put a black face on anything. They are Asking Legislatures to do the job and vote for the issue at hand. Plain and simple. Every vote counts. Doesn’t matter if its white or black.

  • ChitownKev

    and why did folks go to the black caucus when early on the Downstate caucus was considered to be the problem?

    Maybe because the Downstate caucus (by and large) told them the same thing.

    But most of those Downstate votes are white legislatures. But I don’t hear you crowing about party solidarity in those cases.

  • Marriage equality is one powerful lei motif in the long struggle for GLTB peoples to obtain American civil rights and equal standing under the law. The struggles for GLTB communities historically is quite similar to that of the African American experience. Your refusal, especially as a teacher, to comprehend our history is a characteristic of institutional bigotry among many black communities. It should be obvious that if someone perceives your comments as bigoted a moral hazard does exist and it is worth examining.

  • str8 facts

    Of course if their citizens. However the constitution does not speak on marriage. Powers not expressly granted to the Federal government are states powers. Doma is unconstitutional.

  • str8 facts

    I can only tell you about my own personal experiences in life and this is what I heard: “The civil rights movement and gay marriage is exactly the same”. I have heard that repeatedly from just everyday conversations. Yes their are similarities but just not the same. Not the same. Maybe I am biased in my opinion. But does that make me a bigot? I don’t think so.

  • Ninong

    Even if you don’t know if it’s a “fundamental human right” to marry the person you love, how about a constitutional right?

    Do gays have the same constitutional rights as everyone else under the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution?

    Remember that marriage is a civil right, not a religious right. In fact, under our Constitution, religion has absolutely no part in this at all. You won’t find the word God anywhere in the Constitution.

  • Mr Common Sense

    Why does the Black vote matter so much? If the LBGT community wants this legislation so bad get other groups instead of repeatedly putting a “black face” so to speak on the reason this legislation wasn’t passed. The LGBT wants to legally justify it’s perversion and is using AA to do it.

    Don’t know about you but, I don’t want to explain to my child it OK to have grown men sodomizing each other or explain how it’s ok for same sex couples to raise children.

    If you read history, the fall of a civilization begins with rampant sexual immorality, look at the greek/roman culture. Lesbos, was an island where young girls were trained to be women, hence lesbian. Gynamisium was a place where little boys were educated then molested by grown men. Julius ceasaer was know to be every woman’s husband, and every man’s wife. Disgusting people, truly disgusting. Remaining blind to facts makes you delusional!

  • Mine too.

  • Ed Adams

    you’re original objection is wrong. lgbts do not claim it is EXACTLY the same. they say that it is the civil rights issue of this generation like black civil rights were for the 60s and that there are similarities. pulling the falsely indignant act at suggesting the similarities only plays to the anti-gay bigot crowd.

  • You are so right to be paranoid. Why, just this morning when I pulled off the sleep sheets, I saw my two male parakeets huddled together, clearly in a birdasexual manner!

  • str8 facts

    I do not marriage is a fundamental human right for anyone. I always believed fundamental human rights was the right to life, oxygen, water, food, and shelter. Everything else is just a luxury. My personal opinion. I don’t know if its true or not.

  • You sad, pathetic hateful woman. You will be stewing in this bitter bile of hate until the end, But, remember this, I say to you, that you blaspheme the very foundation of Christianity and The New Testament with your ignorance and hate and you offend the very heart of the civil society and vision of Martin and Coretta King.

  • Ninong

    Do you deny that the freedom to marry the person you love is a fundamental human right? It was declared a fundamental human right by the United States District Court and upheld by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. It is now pending before the United States Supreme Court because the haters, who would deny gays their fundamental human rights, are trying to take away their right to marry in the state of California. That decision is expected before the end of next month.

  • str8 facts

    Wow. Bigot must be the word of the day. I just offered a possible solution to helping gay marriage pass. But I’m a Bigot for that. Lol. The funny thing is that I do support marriage equality. I just do not see how the struggle for marriage equality is equal to the african American experience.

  • Oh yes, Bishop Eddie and his boy toys, not to mention assistant pastor Rev, King ( a closeted lesbian) gay hater and daughter of Martin and Coretta King.

  • Thank you! First of all take down Rahm Emmanuel as soon as possible.

  • str8 facts

    Calling someone names DOES NOT strengthen your argument it actually weakens it. Moving on you made two good points African Americans do NOT own civil rights and second oppression manifest itself differently for different groups. My original statement was I do not see the equivalency it still holds true.

  • You go god warrior bigotena!

  • Naja pallida

    Everybody knows that education is just part of the homosexual agenda!

  • There is no God. Denying civil rights justice because of an absurd myth is insane.

  • str8 facts

    Ummm…. A couple of things… Do you feel better by calling me names. I AM Black and Gay and I have never heard of the things you have just claimed of. That Black bigots are equating Gays to Pedophiles? I happen to be a teacher my students, the parents, and my family all know I’m gay and I never had a issue with it. Also I have never heard of “gangs of young black men lynching gays” like what? Lol where does that happen at? However what is ironic is I Do Not experience discrimination from Black ppl for being gay. I do experience discrimination in the form of racism from white gays ppl. That’s pretty ironic for you. :)

  • Ed Adams

    you’re obviously a troll.

    if you’re too dim-witted to see the similarities then you need to read the writings of Coretta Scott King, Julian Bond, Jesse Jackson and many of the other 1960s civil rights luminaries who have no trouble seeing the resemblances. every oppressed group faces differences in the oppression. no one is saying they’re exactly equal. jews have suffered differently from women who have suffered differently from blacks who have suffered differently from lgbts.

    blacks do NOT own civil rights.

  • “need to have their tax exempt status pulled” Absolutely!

  • bull shit

  • Yep, sewing your lips together is a start.

  • Use Vaseline next time.

  • Presses finger to cheek, bats eyes and says, ‘Really?’ “Please help me understand” Start with this line from an old Billy Holiday song–“strange fruit hanging from a Poplar tree.'” Understand that your faux nativity is almost as repellant as your bigotry..Also, understand that you should get out of the way because justice will sweep you aside.

  • str8 facts

    Ok please enlighten me. I am always open to new opinions, thoughts, and ideas. How is not being able to marry the same as segregation, enslavement, and continual racism the same? Please help me understand. The issue at hand is not whether or not should gay ppl be allowed to get married or not. The issue is gay ppl not going out and speaking at churches and elsewhere to make their case heard. They just ASSUME that others know of their experience and oppression.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    The 2 likely yeses don’t get credit if they we’re sitting in that caucus meeting going along with a race-based group decision to kill the bill.

    Which of those downstate districts are more pro-gay than the Chicago districts of the upstate derailers? You’re pretending they’re all the same.

    Word immediately coming out of the Black Caucus was a snide directive to “Go find Republican votes.” That shredding of party solidarity won’t be forgotten.

  • But, but it is taught in home schooling that the two Mastodons Moses brought on the Arc were gay, that’s why the species died out.

  • Apparently never saw the stats on African American AIDS.

  • Animals are gay. Tim and Bobby Penguin think you are not only a bigot, but ignorant at that.

  • excellent!

  • “I fail to see the equivalence of the two situations.” That is exactly the point!

  • Well done!

  • Skeptical Cicada

    The first black president sees the equivalence, so you can take it up with him. Taking offense at the comparison is standard posturing of black bigots, who are not satisfied unless gays are comparing ourselves to pedophiles. Marriage is also a basic human right, and gays have helped build this country too, bigot.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    It’s all for show. The Chicago media started reporting the Madigan killed the marriage bill to help his daughter, who is panting to be governor, by trying to make the current governor look ineffective. As far as I’m concerned, no gay voter should ever support her until the bill is law.

  • str8 facts

    I’m sorry but your comment really upsets me. Your assuming that the plight of LBGTQ community to achieve marriage is equal to the struggle of African Americans to obtain basic human rights in the country that they helped build. I fail to see the equivalence of the two situations.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    The first black president has compared the struggles. Only bigots like you are still complaining about it.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Stand up for black bigotry and black hypocrisy.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Yes, let’s blame the victims. The Black Caucus had nothing to do with it, huh?

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Is that comment designed to show that there is no antigay bigotry among African Americans?

  • Butch1

    I’ve noticed that some stations are being more respectful and treating us by saying the “F” word like they say the “N” word when mentioning that expletives were used. I like that and it shows respect for us.

  • Butch1

    I guess if it is being quoted from a book it is one thing but if it is being used, I would have a problem with hearing either used from the black PhD professor ( or anyone else ) if he were speaking off the cuff. To me, it’s vulgar and hurtful language. ( I’m older and from a generation where both words were pejoratively used and it is still hard for me to differentiate them in today’s society ) I realize there will be others who will disagree with me and that is fine though this is my opinion.

  • Ed Adams

    Excellent article on the hideously hypocritical and anti-democratic role of the black caucus in this debacle.


    “Given the political makeup of the Illinois House, the House Black
    Caucus clearly had the numbers to dictate the outcome. And on Friday,
    the members of the House Black Caucus chose to derail the effort to
    legalize marriage for same-sex couples in Illinois.

    Now, in light of what I noted earlier about the positions of
    and liberals on this issue, this should be surprising. Not only are
    African-Americans predominantly Democrats and liberals, but they are
    more Democratic and more liberal than any other racial or ethnic group
    in the nation. Although 43 percent of whites are Democrats,
    percent of African-Americans are Democrats, and African-Americans are 20
    percent more likely than whites to identify as liberal. One might
    therefore have expected the members of the House Black Caucus to lead
    the charge in favor of a right of same-sex couples to marry. That is,
    after all, the dominant position of both Democrats and liberals.

    Moreover, given the long and historic struggle of African-Americans
    to achieve equality for themselves in the United States, it might have
    seemed obvious that African-American legislators would be especially
    sensitive to and supportive of the demand of gays and lesbians for
    equality under the law.

    But that was not to be. The usual liberalism of the House Black
    Caucus apparently does not extend to protecting the equality rights of
    gays and lesbians. That they pulled the plug on same-sex marriage in
    Illinois is therefore both disappointing and perplexing.

    It is clear, then, that for a major segment of the African-American
    community, when it comes to gays and lesbians, religion trumps
    liberalism. It is, of course, the right of individuals in our society to
    follow and propound their own religious beliefs without government
    interference. But that is not the issue here. The issue here is whether
    those holding particular religious beliefs can legitimately use the
    of government to impose their religious beliefs on others who do not
    share them. “My God forbids this conduct so the government must forbid
    it” is not a legitimate basis for government action in the American
    constitutional system.

    It is especially distressing that these African-American ministers
    would act in such clear disregard of the fundamental American principle
    of separation of church and state. “My God forbids this” was precisely
    the argument that white supremacists used to defend slavery, Jim Crow
    and especially anti-miscegenation laws that forbade blacks and whites to marry.

    When white segregationists intoned that “God forbids the marriage of
    whites and blacks,” civil rights leaders — including African-American
    minister — courageously stood up for the right of individuals to marry
    whomever they loved — regardless of what others thought their God
    It is therefore particularly disheartening to see
    African-American ministers, who were once so eloquent in defending their
    own right to marry in the face of religious bigotry, now raising their
    voices so emphatically in order to deny that very same right to others.

  • Butch1

    Oh, Becca, she deserves it. She has been rather nasty.

  • Butch1


  • Butch1

    Considering that it was gay, black activists who helped organize those movements, it is obvious she doesn’t even know her own history. Ha!

    Get thee some education, woman!!

  • DjuanWash

    What’s the marriage rate in the black community?

  • DjuanWash

    Our view? Who made you “dear leader”? You don’t represent me with your ignorance, buffoonery and stupidity. You can claim all of that yourself.

  • Butch1

    Of course, you don’t, you are a bigot. Thank goodness I’m not one. I can only wonder what in the world happened to you to turn you into the hateful person that you are today. You would have had to either be raised that way or your church trained you to be hateful. No person is born that way. Hate, as with religion, is a choice. Being gay as with being straight, is not.

  • DjuanWash

    Are you proud of the black caucus for NOT standing up and doing anything when the school board voted to close nearly all of the schools in Chicago? Gay marriage must have been the cause of that too. Black people need to wake up. Your communities are falling apart and it has nothing to do with gay marriage. (I’m black and I’m gay)

  • Butch1

    It is still happening to us today in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, and any other country that practices Sharia Law. It wouldn’t surprise me if Saudi Arabia does it and our lazy media continues to not publish these horrible facts. In the Continent of Africa there are countries that are now in the process of passing laws to put us to death thanks to our fundamentalist missionaries meddling. If they could get away with that here in the United States, they would have pushed for it as well. I’m sure Nina would approve. We still are in far worse shape than she ever will be. We are still being discriminated against in Europe and in Russia. She has no idea.

  • DjuanWash

    Yet, the black caucus is doing little to curb the violence in the very communities that they represent. Really tired of black folks who get all high and mighty on Sunday and Monday-Saturday do nothing, liquor stores on every corner, guns in the hands of children, drugs everywhere with artist such as Chief Keef, getting airplay of crap such as “I hate being sober”. And gay marriage is the enemy? No wonder our communities are where they are, we keep electing puritanical buffons who have no real intention at changing our communities, they don’t care and them coming together to defeat gay marriage, something that has no real calculable effect on straight ANYTHING is the enemy? How come the closing of Chicagos schools isn’t the enemy?

  • Ninong

    Nina, since you’re so insistent that blacks are all part of a group struggle, then why don’t you worry about black-on-black drug-related crime? Take care of that first before wasting your time worrying about whether gays get the right to marry. I’m sure there are no black gays, right?

    What if there really are black gays? Would they still be part of your “struggle” or would they be part of that gay agenda thing?

  • Butch1

    That was what I was thinking as well, Becca.

  • Butch1

    As usual, she has no response to your logic and facts, John. She just ignores you. She will not debate these kinds of facts. I imagine she will change the subject or argue with someone else. This is typical troll behavior.

  • Butch1


  • Butch1

    This has happened to us for many centuries.

  • Butch1

    It was a gay black man who used to organize many of those marches. Do you not know your own history?

  • Carol Ann

    Check out the bonobos chimpanzee sexual behavior.

  • Butch1

    Religion shouldn’t be poking its nose into laws that affect the lives of ALL of us who may or may not be religious at all. It is truly unfortunate that it has happened yet again.

    These meddling churches and their obnoxious “men of god” need to have their tax exempt status pulled since what they are doing has nothing to do with teaching the word of god or Jesus at all. They preach hate and go after gays and lesbians and their right to marry the person they love. It is punitive and they do not want us to have the same rights as they. They is the only reason. They fail to remember that marriages were being performed well before they got involved. Now they think they were the first to have started it all.

    I so dislike revisionists and their ignorant sheep that will believe anything they are fed.

  • Butch1

    You’re correct; YOUR thinking is considered deviant activity now days since the AMA and the APA have correctly said that being gay is just a variance of normal. So it is YOU who has the problem with it and not any of us.

    Perhaps you should seek out professional help to deal with your mental illness. There IS a cure for it.

  • FLL

    I have a guilty secret. When I replied to “joswiftee,” I was just having fun with her.

  • Butch1

    Unfortunately, you are wasting your time on this troll; she isn’t worth it.

  • Butch1

    I have given up with lengthy explanations to these bigots since they have closed minds and are here to just stir the pot and piss us off when this loss obviously hurts us. She is enjoying our defeat and as with most homophobic bigots, we need to treat her as the troll she is and from now on just ignore her and send her on her way. She doesn’t care if there is obvious facts laid out right in front of her eyes.

  • Butch1

    They ARE. Why don’t YOU educate yourself before opening your obviously ignorant mouth!

    I am so tired of reading and listening to people like you who think you know everything and pontificate about nature like you know anything about it. Perhaps, if you cracked open a book about it or just did a little bit of research on the internet about it you would know this. I have lost all patience with ignorant people such as yourself.

  • truthtalk5

    My two female labs are sometimes gay and incestuous when they go into heat, mother and daughter humping each other lol.

  • Ninong

    Hey, Nina, you know what I think you would get a kick out of: Bishop Eddie Long and his New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Atlanta. Bishop Long is just your sort of pastor. You would really like him. Just google Bishop Eddie Long.

  • Ninong

    The scope of your ignorance is breathtaking!

  • ChitownKev


    I’m uprating your post but I will note that 4 members of that Downstate Caucus are black; 2 of who were likely to vote for marriage equality.

    9-11 of them were not.

    Y’all want names? Have at it.

    19 downstate Dems

    Dan Beiser- Alton-No

    John Bradley-No

    Linda Chapa-LaVia-No

    Kate Cloonen- No

    Deb Conroy- undecided

    Jerry Costello- Likely no

    Jack Franks- undecided

    Jehan Gordon- Yes

    Jay Hoffman- probably no

    Eddie Jackson- no

    Naomi Jacobson- yes

    Chuck Jefferson- no

    Stefanie Kifowit- undecided

    Frank Mautino- no

    Emily Mcasey- probable yes

    Brandon Phillips- No

    Sue Scherer- undecided, seemed to be leaning no

    Elgie Sims- yes

    Mike Smiddy- yes

    Larry Walsh- probable yes

    Patrick Verschoore- no

    Sam Yingling-Yes

    anywhere from 11-13 no votes were coming from downstate Illinois.



    All Democrats and mostly white.

  • ChitownKev

    I’m black and I upvoted you.

    Not because I like the tendency to generalize about “black folks” (a lot of which is evident in this thread).

    But if you are specifically targeting folks like that loathsome turd James Meeks, i will back you 100%

    I also want to note what seems to be a quasi racist assumption in this thread.

    Not all Illinois black democrats represent Chicago.

    and in this thread, John needed to focus on the opposition of the Downstate Dem Caucus

  • Ed Adams

    lol. homosexuality is100% normal and natural. seek help for your anti-gay bigotry. it’s often the sign of repressed homosexuality. i’m sure there’s a good psychiatrist in your area who can help you. good luck.

  • Ed Adams

    seek help for dealing with your own anti-gay bigotry–often a sign of repressed homosexual desires.

  • ChitownKev


    If I could give you 10 up votes, I would.

  • FLL

    See my reply above to joswiftee. Male dolphins, male lions, female bonobo chimpanzees, etc. do not have the benefit of “hollywood forcefeeding of gay propaganda.” Your logic and argumentation may be deviant. Critical thinking and critical reading are the only cure.

  • FLL

    From your comment: “…then why is this so.” (By the way, put a question mark after that.)

    This is not so. Lots of species exhibit same-sex sexuality, but male dolphins are clearly the superstars of the animal kingdom. They mate with females during a certain period of the year, but do not maintain the sexual bond with the same female from one year to the next. Two male dolphins, on the other hand, have sex with each other throughout the year, but more to the point, the pair of males forms a permanent bond that usually lasts most of their lives. To put it another way, male dolphins are sexually monogamous, but not in the way you think. Male lions are equally notorious. The species that is closest genetically to humans are bonobo chimpanzees, and sexual pairing among females is particularly well-documented although male bonobos exhibit this too. Google and YouTube are definitely your friend, and you will come to love them both.

  • Animals are gay. Just google homosexuals in the animal kingdom and I’m sure it will bring back results.

  • Realtalk

    GO NINA!!! You are 1000% right!!!!! Why do I care who someone is sleeping with? My main issue with gay marriage is WHAT”S NEXT? Since we’re co-signing gay marriage how can we stand against a woman marrying and man and a woman or vice versa? We can’t if we allow gay marriage. Some of the most prominent gays have been in heterosexual marriages as well now who’s to stop one from wanting both? I’m not for gay marriage but I love and respect gays and if anything think it should be a civil union not a marriage. If it’s about love why is it so important to take on the title of marriage?

  • joswiftee

    If being gay is natural. Why aren’t animals gay? I never see 2 of the same gender of anything but humans feel sexual towards the other. If this is so natural then why is this so.

  • Bamatime

    Sorry that everyone doesn’t want to pair a deviant activity with the norm. It will eventually get turned into law because the same population that voted G.W. Bush into office twice (after he sent us on a war for wmds) & Obama twice (after he went back on ee promised), is dumb/simplistic enough to let the hollywood forcefeeding of gay propaganda get them to parrellel deviant behavior with marriage. [email protected]

  • JohnnyFromGreenBelt

    Waiting to the last day to pass same-sex marriage is not a winning strategy. Marriage equality failed in part because activists got lazy after the three marriage wins this year. Same-sex marriage was on a winning streak and gay people felt they didn’t have to pressure their politicians. Call, write letters, and show up at their office and tell them why civil unions are not enough.

  • Ty Morgan

    Those black so-called “ministers” are nothing more than another shade of bigotry.

  • mirror

    I appreciate the vast majority of your posts, but my experience with you and race leans towards “methinks though dost protest too much.”

  • mirror

    I wasn’t upset at your response. I know you take pride in your effort to be a good person, so I expected you might not be happy with what I said. Still I thought your short response in this thread was shallow.

    As far as deep discomfort with African-Americans, I think I’m going to stick with my comment. I didn’t say you were racist, but you have always seemed uncomfortable in your writings, maybe a level of intellectualizing that misses the human experience. But I distinguish between discomfort and racism. Perhaps for you it is simple A or B, racist or not racist, with no room for leaving behind old cultural baggage. So, if you believe as a white person that you have left behind any negative cultural baggage you were carrying regarding Blacks in America, more power to you. You’d be a better man than almost everybody I know, Black or white or other.

  • mirror

    My comment was not meant as a direct response to your comment. My bad on that. I think your discussion here has been very thoughtful.

  • I figure anyone who can blithely dismiss the millennia-long attempted genocide of gay people as ‘nonsense’ is a pretty vile human being and seriously not someone I would ever want to know personally.

    Besides which, she says she doesn’t want to “let” us use or point to the obvious parallels between our struggle for civil rights and the African American civil rights movements of the 50s and 60s. I’d like to see how she expects to stop us, not when we have — as John ably points out above — some of the most famous and influential African American civil rights leaders speaking out on behalf of the LGBT community.

    And in Nina’s corner? A steadily dying off bunch of ignorant bigots.

  • Ed Adams

    you sure do give blacks a bad name.

  • Ed Adams

    lol. you wouldn’t know truth if it hit you in the face. jesus is cryin’ cause your such an anti-gay bigot.

  • Johnnyjake

    It was the exit polls themselves which, upon analysis, were found to be faulty (a 21st century staple) and which fueled some very ugly, very racist behavior. You are correct, polls are not racist but people are. I know, I was there on the blvd. I heard the foul comments and threats hurled at black members of the community. So, and I think understandably, I am only uncomfortable with your lack of accuracy. In the final analysis it was in-county voters that passed Prop 8. Not coincidentally the very areas targeted by the mormon and catholic churches. There was also a large disconnect between the pre-election polling of Latino voters and the actual result, a fact I’m completely comfortable working to change.

  • Ed Adams

    lol. no one who marched in 1960 had been enslaved. and gays have been beaten, burned at the stake, and shot and killed ever since the Christians took over in Rome 1500 years ago. blacks don’t own civil rights. and the 1960s black rights movement were totally ripping off the woman’s suffrage movement. blacks do a disservice to their cause by claiming a monopoly on civil rights.

  • George Melby

    They’ll do it every time!

  • George Melby

    Nina is lucky I didn’t rip her a new one!!! The Grammar/Spelling Police!

  • George Melby


  • George Melby

    Education, education, education… she has not! (nina)

  • George Melby

    “Some” peoples’ memories are only 1-2 pages long. Nina???

  • I still love ya!

  • George Melby


  • George Melby

    OOOooooo, Babycheeks, we should be so lucky… everyone knows that people like you come with no on/off switch. That’s just one reason we don’t grant you your full “rights.” Ya cain’t shut up!

  • George Melby

    Ohhhhhhh mannn… thank you x 100, John. These self-inflicted “victims” are so taken aback by their own lonesome suffering, they don’t give a shat about anyone else! It would be interesting to know how old ol’ Nina is… she was probably 6-7 yrs. old when the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King was shot! Nina has suffered????? Bahhhhhhhhhhh!!!

  • “so get over it.” No problem as soon as I scrape you off my shoe.

  • Shove your ‘down low’ down the glory hole. Working in HIV advocacy for nearly twenty years I still can believe the denial and hypocrisy of black Baptists like you.

  • George Melby

    Sometimes, from what Nina says, I get the very distinct impression that dear NYNA clearly hasn’t suffered enough! Be grateful for what you have… it could be taken away in an instant by an accidental drive-by shooting.

  • Bravo!

  • George Melby

    Sorry, FLL, but you’re being way too kind to NYNA!!! Save the boards, save the nails… give her rope! That can be reused!

  • Boo F’ing Hoo bigot. The fact that thousands of we ‘gays against creation’ joined the Civil Rights Movement to support your free speech rights to be a bigot doesn’t mitigate bigotry. Get off the bus honey if you don’t like us moving forward. “don’t you dare devalue Black people because you want to be with someone of the same sex…. ” Don’t you even go there sister. Don’t you dare!

  • George Melby

    Hell, the “christian fundamentalists” wrote the book on “bearing false witness.” An all-knowing God included that in the Ten Commandments because God knew what true Christian people were up against!

  • I noticed it right away and decided for once not to be a grammar scold.

    It wasn’t easy.

  • pappyvet

    Oh John LOL! You are such a stickler ;]

  • d3clark

    Tea Time was just a twinkle in her daddy’s eye back then. But she likes to pretend she’s Rosa Parks.

  • d3clark

    Of course it was just blacks. Now take your haldol and get a good rest. Tomorrow you have a lot of very important finger painting to do.

  • d3clark

    Thank you for allowing us to read of your continuing mental deterioration as the thread progresses.

  • d3clark

    Just because YOU don’t like what you see when you look in the mirror is YOUR problem. I’m so glad we have The World’s Number One Fighter Against Racism posting for us. OF COURSE, no WHITE person EVER fought AGAINST racism, EVER. Maybe you need to stop looking in the mirror and read some history instead of complaining how tough you have it. Get a backbone,

  • d3clark

    Some of them are FROM the Illinois House.

  • pappyvet


    Let me try in a civil manner to explain to you so that the hatred and bigotry played out on Black Americans is not paid foreward due to what I feel is justifiable rage onto the backs of gay folks. What you are seeing is a disbelief.

    Disbelief that a group who understands persecution because they do not fit the scheme,do not fit the bill, would not support us. Thats all. We’re used to it.

    Just like the Blacks,we are used to being beaten,tortured,lied to and lied about.
    We are used to being slapped around and are used to those looks. Those looks of disgust and self righteous arrogance that says,I’m better than you,you are not completely human,you are not one of Us.
    You say Nina,that you’ve been struggling for 400 years. Welcome to the club dear Nina,we’ve had the door open for a couple of thousand.
    I can only hope that one day we can all join hands without someone wondering if the black is dirt or if the gay will infect them. And that is what makes this so very sad and hard to understand.
    You have every right to your opinion and your freedom and your life. I can no longer walk without help and great pain because of my firm belief in that freedom and whether you believe it or not,would do the same again if asked because your existance is the only one of its kind that will ever occur on this planet. But so is mine,and John’s and Becca’s and we like you have the right to pursue happiness in equal measure without the need for closets or getting off the sidewalk.

  • d3clark

    You’ve found your niche! You really CAN parrot pretty well, if nothing else.

  • Actually, you couldn’t care less.

  • d3clark

    Honey Boo Boo? You seriously bring Honey Boo Boo into a discussion like this?

    Please, before you bring up others’ use of English, translate this glob of word pudding you posted: “Remember the photo post of those ALLEGED to has committed the crime after the Knick’s game.”

    If you want to try to make an argument, try to at least make it somewhat comprehensible.

  • EdA

    For his sake, I hope that Rep. Davis was severely misquoted — but I don’t think so,

    “For me, there’s really no net gain for me one way or another. I’m hearing equally. Do I philosophically disagree? No, I don’t. But I would like to see absolute protections for churches and religious organizations so they’re not pushed into something they don’t want,” said Rep. Will Davis (D-Homewood). “For me, [a decision] will literally be when the bill comes up and after I sit and listen.”

    Unless the Illinois bill — which had already passed the Senate — was significantly different from every other U.S. marriage equality bill that I have heard of, it would contain explicit language stating that no representative of a religious organization would need to conduct any marriage s/he had religious objections to and that no church, synagogue, etc. would need to recognize for religious purposes any marriage they had objections to. So Southern Baptist ministers could continue to refuse to conduct interracial marriages, Catholic priests need not conduct marriages for divorced people, and the like.

    Of course no one could expect the Christian fundamentalists to pay any attention to the commandment about not bearing false witness.

  • d3clark

    You promised to take your prejudice and intolerance and leave. A liar to boot. Just like a typical Republican.

  • d3clark

    Nina, do you have any solid evidence for your views? If not, they just opinions, bigoted, biased, false and short-sighted opinions.

    You have no idea what “struggle” is.

    My suggestion is that you move to Minnesota’s Sixth Congressional District and run in the next election. If you win, you’ll be a fitting replacement for the biased Bachmaniac.

  • Indigo

    Oh. My bad!

  • I also think our struggle rises above the judgment of ‘nonsense’.

  • True, but isn’t someone saying they don’t want you to have the right to marry the man or woman you love because they feel that who and what you are is inherently immoral and wrong the definition of being a ‘hater’? Especially when that judgment of immorality is based on a religious belief that contradicts known science?

  • FLL

    One of the biggest challenges confronting the African-American community today is Black voter suppression on the part of state-level Republican officials. Republican governors and attorneys general in Ohio and Florida have been particularly outrageous in their efforts to disenfranchise Black voters. And these members of the Illinois Black Caucus are blind enough to tell gay people to go and get some Republican votes. This is very short-sighted of them, to put it kindly.

  • Actually that’s a good point. If we’re to believe (which I don’t) that the Old Testament is talking about gays, then actually it goes back to before the time of Christ.

  • Well, there’s clearly an undercurrent of anger here that comes with this issue, with anything dealing with the Middle East, trans issues (though surprisingly not as much as these two), and I’m sure others. And what happens is that because some people are motivated by hate, it’s assumed that everyone is motivated by hate, so everyone who doesn’t agree is attacked a hater.

  • EdA

    Given that there is no legitimate Biblical reason to oppose marriage equality, it is truly disheartening that so many members of the Black Caucus have knowingly chosen to ally themselves with people who are actively trying to deprive Blacks and members of other minority groups of fair access to the ballot box, fair access to employment and opportunities to move beyond entry-level positions, equal treatment by law enforcement, meaningful access to the courts, and so much more.

    The notion of “Why don’t you get some Republicans?” suggests that the person/people asking it have not noticed that:

    – Since 1972 the Republican party nationally has been committed to a course of white supremacy,

    – Ronald Reagan — the great white hope — started his presidential campaign in Philadelphia, Mississippi, not Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

    – Members of the Republican establishment and of the Republican fringe have been driving themselves crazy at the fact that not just once, but twice, the American people elected somebody uppity to be president.

    Let’s face it — what used to be the party of Lincoln has thoroughly transformed itself into the party of Jefferson Davis, and its adherents are trying — with increasing success — to expand the plantation mentality from the former slave states of the Confederacy to the rest of the country.

    I understand that there will — or is supposed to be — another opportunity for members of the Illinois House of Representatives, regardless of ethnicity and regardless of political affiliation, to “do the right thing. And deciding to do the right thing shouldn’t depend on whether other people do so, also.

  • Thanks. As far as I’m concerned, the double insult comes when our ‘friends’ say they can’t support something we want, they add that their opposition is because they think we’re ‘immoral’ (as that one commenter upthread kept insisting).

  • I’m not sure who you’re referring to, but it would have been racist for me to say that Barack Obama is the only politician whose feet I’m not going to hold to the fire “because he’s black.” I don’t treat politicians differently based on their race, I hold them all equally accountable for their promises.

  • FLL

    We are not trying to use your struggle to our advantage because we have our own history of struggle that we can use. No need to worry.

  • Try 1600 years, John. And further back than that, if we accept that those war-god worshipping Old Testament types really were stoning gay men to death, as their rulebook said was required.

  • And if there were a white caucus it would racist as hell.

  • You do raise a good point – we help elect Democrats, we don’t help elect Republicans. So yes, we do expect something in return as every voter should.

  • Yeah I was surprised as well that they were getting away with that argument, STILL. No house of faith is required to marry anyone.

  • Good. Then leave, because your anti-gay bigoted attitudes will not be welcome around here.

    I have to thank you though, for repeatedly showing us all here the kind of ignorant, intolerant yahoos we’re up against.

  • Pretty much, yep. Some cultures, such as the Abrahamaic ones, did essentially stone to death anybody who did not live up to their rigid rules — and that goes back more than three thousand years.

    The Romans and Greeks had a different view, and yes — men were even marrying each other. It wasn’t until the Christians had fully subsumed the rotting bones of the old Roman Empire that they had the power base to begin their centuries long anti-gay crusades and inquisitions.

  • First off, Nina, let’s be honest. Your problem is that you’re bigoted against gays – you admit up above that you think gays are “immoral.” So let’s get that out of the way, before all the rest of this confuses what this conversation is really about.

    As for comparing gay rights and African-American civil rights, it was Coretta Scott King who compared gay civil rights and African-American civil rights. And I’m sorry, but she outranks you, and pretty much everyone other than her husband, as an authority on what are civil rights.

    And I quote:

    Coretta Scott King, speaking four days before the 30th anniversary of her husband’s assassination, said Tuesday the civil rights leader’s memory demanded a strong stand for gay and lesbian rights. “I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice,” she said. “But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, ‘Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.’” “I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people,” she said. – Reuters, March 31, 1998.


    And please can we not start the comparison game of whose got a bigger suffering? It’s a childish, and mean, approach to civil rights, suggesting that civil rights are limited to one group or another. There are ample civil and human rights for everyone in the world, and everyone should have them.

    (Not to mention, gays were targeted in the Holocaust, and we’ve been hated for more than 400 years – so I think we all have enough suffering to go around. We can all rejoice in the facts that we’re all despised.)

  • Nina

    I could less about any of the nonsense you are talking about .

    My concern is about Blacks and not letting immoral people use our struggle when you know you only pretend to care less about Blacks as long as we agree with you. So go take your “always accusing people of being homophobic heterophobic butt down because this discussion is over….

  • I think it’s really quite simple: You want us to vote for your causes, you need to vote for ours. Refuse to vote for ours, especially by claiming there’s something sinful about who we are, well, you’d damned well forget about having our support when you need it.

    Time and time again, the LGBT community is asked to buckle down and get Democratic candidates elected — including support for the other key demographic groups within the Dem ‘big tent’. This includes minorities such as Latinos and African Americans, as well as others.

    We’re asked for our money, our votes, and to lobby for their legislative agenda priorities. So then we ask, “Okay, when is our turn at the table? These are the things we want, and really if you look at them, they affect YOU very little or not at all, but have a HUGE positive benefit for our quality of life, so how about it?” Or, “Okay, we have an immigration bill, can we please have our ONE important issue included?” — and the door is slammed hard in our faces and we complain at all we’re accused of being racists or ungrateful or just selfish and unrealistic.

    Again, consider the immigration bill. Not only was the one thing we wanted stripped out — provisions for bi-national families — the drastically increased immigration enforcement would result in MORE families being broken up and forced to choose between divorce or exile. We complain, say this is no longer a bill we can support, and that we’re certainly not going to go to any particular effort to get it passed — well, the gusher of abuse and invective starts up immediately.

    You put it well, John: I expect my friends to help me. Those who don’t because they think there’s something immoral about who I am — well, that’s no friend, and they’d best not expect my help when they need it.

  • FLL

    Thanks, Becca. People so often forget to look at human struggles from a bird’s eye view. I hate it when some ignorant people claim that legal recognition of same-sex couples has been prohibited “since the beginning of time” or “since the dawn of history” when it was actually since the fourth century CE.

  • Let’s see… Slavery = evil, no doubt. A horrible thing.

    Being gay? The go-to response to us often was to burn us alive. And we had to endure this for more than a millennia and a half.

    In the year 390, the Christian emperors Valentinian II, Theodosius I and Arcadius declared homosexual sex to be illegal and those who were guilty of it were condemned to be burned alive in front of the public.
    The Sixteenth Council of Toledo issued a statement in response, which was adopted by Egica, stating that homosexual acts be punished by castration, exclusion from Communion, hair shearing, one hundred stripes of the lash, and banishment into exile.
    1120 – Baldwin II of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, convenes the Council of Nablus to address the vices within the Kingdom. The Council calls for the burning of individuals who perpetually commit sodomy.
    1232 – Pope Gregory IX starts the Inquisition in the Italian City-States. Some cities called for banishment and/or amputation as punishments for 1st- and 2nd-offending sodomites and burning for the 3rd or habitual offenders.
    1483 – The Spanish Inquisition begins. Sodomites were stoned, castrated, and burned. Between 1540 and 1700, more than 1,600 people were prosecuted for sodomy.
    1532 – Holy Roman Empire makes sodomy punishable by death.
    1533 – King Henry VIII passes the Buggery Act 1533 making anal intercourse punishable by death throughout England.
    1620 – Brandenburg-Prussia criminalizes sodomy, making it punishable by death.
    1624 – Richard Cornish of the Virginia Colony is tried and hanged for sodomy.
    1721 – Catherina Margaretha Linck is executed for female sodomy in Germany.

    And this is just a sampling of the atrocities, torture, and summary executions we had to endure. It took until the turn of the 19th century before countries began to repeal their “death to gays” laws.

    Oh, and of course there was the special bonus “pink triangle”, where gays were shipped off to the Nazi concentration camps to die, along with the Jews and Romani. This was happening just 70 years ago.

    You lost your lands and your culture. They’ve been depriving us of LIFE. So get off your frickin’ high horse.

    “I often laugh at gays…” Yeah, a lot of homophobic bigots do. You are among the kind of ignorant gits we have to overcome — and we will, just you wait.

  • Yeah, because there are no racist gays, right?

    And in the 1980s, gay San Francisco was very white and very racist, and some of that still exists.

  • FLL

    The Black Caucus did their constituents a disservice. Support for marriage equality among the African-American constituents in their districts is 60%. (Don’t even bother trying to lie about the public opinion polls.) The legislators in the Black Caucus aren’t taking orders from their constituents. You just don’t want to admit that Black pastors are offering those members of the Black Caucus campaign contributions in return for their “no” vote, or perhaps threatening to withhold campaign contributions if they were to vote “yes.” You make it sound so noble, but it sounds like dirty money-laundering to me.

  • Nina

    I encourage Black people to stand for what you believe in and don’t let anyone TELL you how to think just because they don’t like what you say. Stand up for our struggle and don’t let what has been deemed immoral to co-opt it.

    I’m actually proud of The Black Caucus for standing for something.Many gays especially White gays are just as racist against Blacks as many non gay Whites are and trust when they don’t get their way,it shows….

  • FLL

    Blah, blah, blah. My question again: “Or else what?”

  • Nina

    I could care less about an idiot like you laughing at me because what I wrote was truth 24/7,so get over it….

  • FLL

    “I often laugh at gays…”

    Don’t look now, but people often laugh at fools like you.

    “…don’t you dare devalue Black people because you want to be with someone of the same sex….”

    Or else what?

  • Nina

    I often laugh at gays that get upset when Black people don’t support homosexuality because you really show your true “color”.

    Like any other group Blacks have the right to our views just as any other group. I must also say that you need to stop comparing your struggle against your creation to that of a people that has struggled and still struggle against racism for over 400 plus years.The racism that Blacks struggle against is one that has enslaved/raped/murdered/original names taken/original land and culture stolen. Drinking from Black only fountains/attacked by dogs and rogue police which still continues,so don’t you dare devalue Black people because you want to be with someone of the same sex….

  • true. I was being ironic.

  • Rick Astor

    Bayard Rustin, a gay black man, you mean.

  • Sweetie

    This is a bit different. The dominant majority generally doesn’t get a special category because of being the dominant majority. This is like white pride marches versus gay pride marches. The former is pointless (in the USA), since “whites” are the dominant majority in the USA (for now).

    There is a need for minorities to have special categories because of the automatic conflict between the desires/needs of the majority and the desires/needs of the minority. This is a subcultural extension of the irreconcilable conflict between society and the individual.

    So, gay people and society needs gay pride and gay-themed curricula/genre. It doesn’t, as much, need overt expressions of white heterosexual Christian dominance. One basically can’t avoid the latter.

  • Odrama

  • FLL

    Update: I cannot imagine a state of the Union that is such a drama queen that it now wants even more worldwide attention, but yes, the great state of Illinois wants more. The Illinois House speaker, Michael Madigan, must have gotten an earful from national Democrats because he just extended the deadline for the marriage equality bill until August 31. Governor Quinn could include the bill in a proclamation to call a special summer session of the state legislature, which he is expected to do because the legislature must still deal with pension reform. Even if Quinn doesn’t include the marriage equality bill in his proclamation, Madigan could call a special session of the Illinois House on his own during the special summer session that Governor Quinn calls. Here is the link.
    Illinois, thy name is Drama Queen.

  • Trolls without a sense of humor or irony are always fair game.

  • ain’t limited to dunkers…

  • Actually, it’s not ‘anger’, but rather a kind of righteous glee to be delivered up such an easy target. Raving bigots are among the most fun because they have no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

  • I am so there when you get angry and can just imagine it must have been a doozy.

  • Alas, John removed the original comments. :-) Understandable, but it does take some of the thunder out of my retorts.

  • In one of the online games I’ve been playing, for weeks I kept seeing characters with a guild name that included the “F-(anti-gay)” word. Not obscured, but right out there. I reported it a whole bunch of times — because this was not a small guild and had quite a few members. I’m not even sure anything’s been done about it, although to be honest, I don’t think I’ve seen it in the last few days. Still, if action was taken, it was nearly a month before they bothered.

    But more to the point, I’ll bet they already have filters that would prevent most of the more obvious racist terms. But clearly not even a vague attempt at blocking “Fa&&ots”.

  • You had to do amazing black flips to rationalize that one.

  • That because oppressed white males wear pointy white sheets.

  • Bigot Baptists don’t like democracy unless it pays off for them.

  • Yep!

  • Say Hi to my old friend from Ann Arbor if you run into him! :-)

  • FLL

    His. I’m just a guy from Fort Lauderdale.

  • Diamonds are a girl’s best friend is not lost on preachers.

  • Oh for Christ’s sake Indi, FLL is not a troll and you should know that by now. I often disagree with FLL, but always respect the careful thought and lucid constructions of his/her arguments.—as I do yours, which is why you can count on that at least one of your up arrows comes from moi.

  • You are probably right, after all Chicago elected one of the most corrupt and vicious Obots as mayor.

  • I’ve yet to see ‘Breeder theory’ or ‘Oppressed Straight White Men in a Democratic Society’ offered on any curriculum.

  • good one!

  • FLL

    If voters in Illinois discover that fundamentalist Christian Black pastors have a “lock” on the Black Caucus, then voters have no option but to introduce a ballot measure for marriage equality, which would certainly win according to the polling data. I think it would be worth finding out if those pastors have a lock on the Black Caucus.

  • The ‘mirror’ is two-dimensional with an illusion of depth.

  • “a huge number of commenters (sp) here immediately bundle all Blacks as having
    the same views as the views of any church leaders of “traditional Black
    churches”, That is simply not true. “John’s hand wringing around around issues of race show a deep discomfort with African-Americans.” As usual, your racist mirror is cracked.

  • Well, for sure I didn’t see you down there toad.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Got it.

  • FLL

    Yes, I was deliberately underestimating the difference between white upstate voters and white Downstate voters, mostly because I don’t have any hard polling data to go by. Then we can conclude that the Black Caucus did their constituents a much greater disservice than did white Downstate Democrats.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    What I’ve seen is deserved criticism of the Black Caucus–their own racial self-designation and identity for group action–and the bigoted ministers they’re serving.

  • Obozo has worked very hard to deserve and earn the considerable contempt aimed in his direction.

  • FLL

    I hear bigotry from clergymen, the occasional sports star (although that is changing), and politicians, which include not only fairly obscure male congressmen from Texas or Tennessee, but rather more well-known figures such as Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann. I’m allergic to double standards, as I suspect you are. So put the three slurs in alphabetical order (which is fair), and either use all of them or avoid all of them:


    Now, let’s get creative and write an entertaining dialogue, which could include activists, sports stars, congressmen and political figures. (What fun!):

    “Don’t call me f–, you c—.”
    “Don’t call me c—, you f–.”
    “Don’t call me n—–, you c—.”
    “Don’t call me c—, you n—–.”

    I hear people everywhere bemoan the lack of “civility in public discourse.” But civility in public discourse is a two-way street, no? I bet many people are allergic to double standards. Achoo!

  • It’s also fair to say that Mr. first black president does zip for blacks communities burdened by the Sequester, slashing to school funds, cutting Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and food security.

  • Now emjayay, if you bring Ms. Manners to a street brawl,even the most civil Chicagoan might laugh you out of town, although (bless him) John gives it a good try.

  • hassling tea pots.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    And don’t blame the victim when you have no idea what was or wasn’t done. You, ass, are pointing your own finger, with zero evidence.

  • rikyrah

    not one of those Black caucus members if gonna be primaried because of their vote on this…

  • You certain got the jist of Chicago.

  • Agreed and that goes for the national elections in ’16’

  • Skeptical Cicada

    You seem to have trouble with math.
    Yeah, black civil rights advocates can go get Republican votes for their issues too. So much for a Democratic coalition, huh?

  • Mark_in_MN

    I didn’t say that it was inappropriate. I said that it seems that the President has an odd notion that doing so would be inappropriate. You might notice I said it was an “odd notion” and wondered if it had to do with a “misguided” application of ideas about federalism. I very much disagree that it is inappropriate for the president to weigh in on such matters. And your comment that equality is never inappropriate is right on target. I guess an understated way of saying that is too subtle.

  • REPEAT, Rince, and SCREAM again.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    I particularly love the absurdity of the “prosperity gospel”– that a minister must display ostentatious wealth to show that he’s been blessed.

  • Pathetic troll. There are many of us involved from the beginning of the civil rights movement, who put our lives on the line against racism and bigotry. It stands now as it did then: Racism is wrong, evil, and discrimination counters principles of democracy. That self designated black religious communities feel they have a monopoly on civil rights and do not recognize GLTBQ communities as worth of basic democratic civil rights is a discrimination as bad as racism and is a tragedy. Black bigots like Mormon bigots, like Catholic bigots like white bigots must be called out at every turn and opposed. The Chicago black caucus are bigots…got it?

  • Sweetie

    And the double standard extends to the Internet, where the n word is blocked by Disqus and other sites but the f word is not. I also think the use of “Queer Theory” in academia is related. There is no “N Word Theory”. We have a ways to go before homosexuality is adequately respected. The AP isn’t using homophobia or heterosexism now. Few use heterosexism, which would place it on the same level as racism and sexism.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    I take your point and agree with it,, but…
    Perhaps a slightly lower percentage downstate? You honestly think there is only a slight difference between the views of whites in Chicago districts and the views of whites in Southern Illinois districts on gay rights? They are completely different worlds. They’re as different as Miami and the Florida panhandle.
    I also don’t get your suggestion that downstate Democrats even did a disservice to their constituents–on your test of reflecting constituent views–as I imagine their constituents strongly oppose gay marriage in those Southern Illinois districts.
    But, again, I take your overall point about relative blame and agree with it.

  • Sweetie

    I was informed recently by a newly minted African American masters graduate from an educational leadership program that Tracey Morgan’s “joke” about stabbing his son to death for being gay is OK, due to some special aspect of the African American community that I am not privy to.

    I was also informed by the same person and others, including a Ph.D professor, that a “white” person cannot even read the n word aloud. The Ph.D used the f word (gay version) glibly during conversation, relating the use of the word by a gay colleague to mock another gay person. Apparently it’s OK for a heterosexual African American to use the f word glibly, but it’s not OK for a “white” person to read aloud a historical text (like Huckleberry Finn) accurately in a classroom.

    Orwell would likely have something to say about this logic. The thing is… as long as doublethink like that persists, even among educated people… we have a problem.

  • Mark_in_MN

    Talk about hypocrisy.

  • Bill_Perdue

    “If you want to claim that the “silence of the Democrats” defeated us, then you will have to explain why only 21% of White Democrats voted for Prop. H8.”

    The two are not related. The question is the vote totals in numbers, not percentages. Obama’s bigoted remarks galvanized the right and emboldened them. Republicans and Yes on 8 used that against us. Democrats and their front groups, EQCA and No on 8, were too cowardly to criticize Obama, as usual putting partisan loyalties before the fight for equality.

    “… Barack Obama was not in favor of marriage equality for gays when he ran for election in 2008. Personally I think that was a political decision more than one made out of real conviction.”

    We hear that a lot and it means nothing. No one knows what he was thinking but we do know that he surrounded himself with ultra bigots like pentecostal ordained ministers Leah D. Daughtry, who chaired the convention and ran the DNC day to day operations, and Joshua DuBois. who headed his cult based campaign and was later promoted to head the corrupt sleaze outfit called the Office of Faith Based and Neighborhood Partnerships. That aside, people who do bigoted things are bigots and Obama defeated marriage equality in California. Obama was a bigot and his rebranding to get our money and votes last fall was not very convincing.

    Bigots and Democrats and Republicans, not blacks, are the problem. And among the bigots, white bigots – cultists from the roman, mormon and baptists cult – are the biggest part of the problem in Illinois just as they were in California.

  • It’s also the case that out of the crooked timber in Chicago, no thing is ever made straight.

  • Probably reads it in the 2-fer.

  • And Gaia to swallow you up!

  • Thank you!

  • Waves hand vigorously in support of the obvious!

  • Certainly characterizes the rolling times of dissent in which we live emjayay and historically representative of the democracy in which we live—messy, passionate and lively!

  • Mark_in_MN

    Minnesota’s campaign combined the direct lobbying of legislators and concerted efforts to mobilize constituents in targeted districts to contact their representatives and senators about supporting the bills. Paying attention to constituents and getting them to contact members of the legislature is important as part of an overall strategy.

  • “I could just as easily call you a homophobe and a racist for attacking me and others in the comments.” That’s OK John, we hotheads can cover that territory and let you off the hook and still express the atmosphere. We went through all this in CA and it is not something that civility can restrain when civil rights hang in the balance. Thanks to black Evangelical bigots, Mormon haters and weak kneed politicos the Chicago playbook is not surprising. The Black Caucus is a bigot move and absolutely shameful.

  • Sweetie

    The Bush/Obama ban on sperm donation certainly was political.

  • Sweetie

    There is no need for a “white caucus” for the same reason there is no need for “white pride”.

  • Mark_in_MN

    I haven’t answered your closing question because it’s irrelevant. Such a response, pittiful and stupid that it is, doesn’t negate my point nor does it focus blame only on one source when there are many reasons for the failure in Illinois.

    What’s really pathetic is your continued resorting to ad hominem attacks and your thinking that you have some laser beam into my soul. Your game is as obvious as you say mine is (although I note you are simply wrong on the game you ascribe to me, blinded by your own agenda to even begin to hear me). Blame something else and pick a target that inflames the worst in some people.

    Reading your posts one would come away with the idea that Black homophobia is a big huge problem (it is), but white homophobia isn’t and we should ignore it. African Americans not helping us is betrayal. White legislators turning their backs on us is no big deal. Yet both are betrayals of justice and party. And don’t even think about how our own organizations and leaders in the fight may have failed. That would be blaming the victim.

    You’re game is all about blaming someone. It isn’t about trying to win this the next chance we get. Blame. Blame. Blame.

  • Damn, woman, when you go you go. I’m right behind ya! :-)

  • Bingo!

  • exactly

  • Is that a yolk?

  • Thank you Princess, condescension is usually the last resort of trolls.

  • FLL

    In posts concerning marriage equality or civil rights, John doesn’t refer to white legislators as “the white caucus,” but then neither does anyone else in this country. And yes, when he refers to black legislators in Illinois or Congress as a group, he calls them “the Black Caucus,” but then so does everyone else in this country, including the legislators in the Black Caucus, who actually defined the term. What you’re accusing John of is using American English the way everyone else does. That seems to be a rather thin soup.

  • LOL? that’s a valid response to bigotry?

  • “tried to browbeat people, and got thrashed.” What browbeat people bigotena was tens of millions in Mormon hate money and evangelical Rick Warren, who became Obama’s pet preacher at his first Inauguration.. What utter bull pucky.

  • Thank you!

  • You’re out of your league tea tizzy, move along now. I’m amazed that John even bothered addressing a cracked pot..

  • pppfffftttt

  • Couldn’t agree more—-especially the mega church scams and particularly the one that involved Martin Luther King’s bigot daughter, whose minister was a pedophile preacher.

  • Now that makes sense!

  • emjayay

    Same thing about marriage equality in Maine. Obama is nothing if not very careful about inflaming Christianist type opinion against him even more than they aleady are.

  • emjayay

    “Bigot”? Now what did John say about civility above?

  • And that was predictable. It’s troublesome that certain of these issues simply can’t be discussed with accusing people of being haters. We routinely look at every segment of the electorate when lobbying on issue – race, religion, ethnicity, region of the country, age, gender, you name it. But then we’re accused of racism when we include black polling among other polling. I suppose we’d also be racists if we polled every race, ethnicity, and religion and left out the black community.

    There is nothing racist about trying to understand where we have support and where we don’t have support. And if we’re wrong about our analysis, then correct us. This kind of feedback, just saying that quoting exit polls, or mainstream newspapers (the Trib has now backed up the allegation that the problem was supporting in the black and latino caucuses), is racist. Because it’s not on its face. And the charge isn’t helpful in clarifying any of this.

  • FLL

    Yes, your post mentioned the problem that the Black Caucus caused for this bill; nowhere did you bring the Black population of Illinois into your argument. I think some energy was misspent on this thread by people who mistakenly (or through paranoia) insisted that your criticism of the Black Caucus was some sort of stealth attack on Black voters in Illinois, who support marriage equality by a healthy margin. And no, elected leaders don’t always follow the consensus of their constituents. I tend to suspect money and corruption as the culprits in the case of the Black pastors.

  • And the nation is 70% in favor of ENDA and the public option, and majorities of pretty much every group support background checks. Just because a majority of any group supports something doesn’t mean legislators are going to. This post is about the black caucus reportedly being a problem, and the Chicago Trib reports that the Latino caucus was a problem as well. Or more specifically, outreach to those caucuses, though that’s six of one, half a dozen…


  • emjayay

    John, there has been a bit of serial name calling and stuff like that here on other issues to the point of making the conversation worthess or worse. Both directed at other commenters and also at other people, mainly the president.

  • dcinsider

    It is not necessary but it’s a harmless bone tossed to religious groups to negate their totally idiotic argument. It basically removes one of their favorite lies from the debate, but, as you suggest, its totally unnecessary.

  • Ninong

    “Not get any help” at all?

    I hope and expect that the Supreme Court will affirm the lower court’s decision overturning Prop. 8 and allowing marriage equality for all in California. My only concern is how limited their decision will be.

    As far as the DOMA case is concerned, I hope and expect that SCOTUS will overturn that part of the law that prevents the federal government from recognizing same-sex marriages performed in states where such marriages are legal. In other words, I expect that the federal government will recognize gay marriage. I would be pleasantly surprised if they require all states to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other states.

    I don’t expect SCOTUS to require same-sex marriage in all states. That would be a real shock but it’s a possibility.

  • dcinsider

    The African-American community is not a monolith on this issue. It is a very defined minority within that community that is being deliberately misled.

  • FLL


  • dcinsider

    Yes, I got that on second read. It was my reading comprehension not your writing :)

  • dcinsider

    I clearly intended that we should not back down from the argument if the racism card is tossed at us. And, it will be.

  • FLL

    Sorry if my writing was unclear. My point was that it’s not the fault of the constituents of the Black Caucus legislators, but rather the Black Caucus legislators who didn’t follow the clear wishes (60%) of their constituents. No race card was implied, and you could use the same logic in any electoral district.

  • emjayay

    DOMA was signed 17 years ago. DADT was considered a compromise between existing military policy and Clinton’s promise to end anti-gay discrimination in the military, signed 23 years ago.
    Times have changed, and nowhere more than public opinion on gay-related issues.
    Oh, and the ban on gays donating blood was a medical, not political, response to people getting transfusions also getting what was then a death sentence. And it’s time to end it, like other countries have done.

  • FLL

    Try to offer a counterargument.

  • dcinsider

    Sorry I may have misread that post. Ooops.

  • FLL

    Your comment is well taken, but if I were poor at reading comprehension, I could just as easily dismiss your entire comment because you “used the race card” in your last sentence. Reading comprehension, no?

  • Indigo


  • Having read through the remarks in this thread since last night, I rescind my original comment in this sub-tree and agree with you now.

  • FLL

    The logic of my argument is clear, and I don’t think you can give me a counterargument. It’s other commenters on this thread who need to drop the racism card, not me.

  • dcinsider

    Drop the racism card. No one here is a racist. By playing that card your entire message becomes worthless and unreadable.

  • I think we’re back into ‘Outrage Inc’ territory here, John. Just a different spin this time.

  • FLL

    With all the charges of racism on this thread, I want to remind people of a basic obligation of elected officials: to represent the consensus of their constituents. Whites supported marriage equality by 50% statewide, and perhaps a slightly lower percentage of whites in Downstate (central and southern) Illinois supported marriage equality. Those Downstate Democrats, then, did their constituents a disservice by voting “no.” The African-American constituents of the Black Caucus, on the other hand, support marriage equality by 60%.

    Now. You. Tell. Me. Which group of legislators committed the greater sin, the Black Caucus or the white Downstate Democrats? Which of the two groups of legislators did their constituents the greater disservice? Which of the two groups of legislators more richly deserves to be defeated in the Democratic primaries next year? Is this finally, finally becoming clear?

  • emjayay

    This is an issue often brought up and distorted by anti-marriage equality forces. It is more surprising coming from a legislator who should be familiar with the actual bill. Of course if a church doesn’t want to marry a non-member or a divorced person or whoever they want they already can. I’m sure the bill doubled down on the not forcing churches to do anything issue even if it is actually unnecessary. Anyone know?

  • dcinsider

    We know that there is no bigger group of hypocrites and snake oil salesman than conservative black preachers. These coke snorting, girlfriend impregnating, uneducated loudmouths should be the African-American community’s largest source of personal embarrassment. Instead, too many good African-American clergy members are afraid to call out their “colleagues” as the hypocrites and stain on the community that they are. Many run neighborhood “parishes” that are little more than covers for unlawful activity and that prey off the most ignorant and under-educated populations in the community. It is high time to stop pretending that these charlatans are “clergy.” And it’s time for the gay and lesbian community to stop worry about being called racist by a group of homophobic hypocrites.

  • Ninong

    I made the point in my original post that blacks alone could not have provided the margin of difference. If you want to claim that the “silence of the Democrats” defeated us, then you will have to explain why only 21% of White Democrats voted for Prop. H8.

    I lived in San Francisco and voted against the Briggs Initiative, too. I no longer lived there by 2008.

    You probably remember that Diane Feinstein was furious with Gavin Newsom for his gay marriage thing and blamed him for George W. Bush’s reelection victory, claiming that it hurt the Democrats in other parts of the country. Even though I always voted for Feinstein, I was never completely pleased with her lukewarm support for gay rights, especially compared to Nancy Pelosi’s strong support.

    We all know that Barack Obama was not in favor of marriage equality for gays when he ran for election in 2008. Personally I think that was a political decision more than one made out of real conviction. He didn’t want to do anything that might weaken his very strong support among blacks. You might also be able to claim that his recent evolution on gay marriage was simply another political calculation. Certainly his campaign promises in 2008 were just that, campaign promises. As a Chicago politician he knew that campaign promises were not meant to be taken seriously. Shortly after he was sworn into office all of those campaign promises he made to the gay community were put on the back burner… way in the back (“before the sun sets on this administration,” according to his token gay administration spokesperson).

  • FLL

    The NOM folks won’t be happy if many of the Democratic legislators who voted “no” are defeated in primaries next year. And the only way they’re going to be defeated in Democratic primaries next year is if commenters across the nation and voters in Illinois decide that they have to go. I don’t think NOM would be very happy about that. Would you? I think NOM would much prefer that the legislators who voted “no” are rewarded by victories in the Democratic primaries. But tell me, which scenario do you think the folks at NOM would prefer?

  • MonicaR62

    The NOM folks are very happy as they read this comment thread. Their plan is working.

  • Bill_Perdue

    The figures from CNN are wrong. Blacks could not have provided the margin of difference. The population figures show that.

    The political question remains who defeated us, and the answer is Obama’s bigotry, the silence of the Democrats and the fact that Yes on 8 used Obama’s words to turn the election at the last minute.

    I lived in LA from 1970 until 1996 and was active in GLBT politics as a socialist from the time of the Briggs Initiative (LACABI) until I left, except that I took off 2 years to take care of my friends and two ex’s who got the plague.

  • FLL

    There certainly are African-American politicians who are Republican. No one told the members of the Illinois Black Caucus that they had to run as Democrats. No one held a gun to their head. Running as Democrats was their choice, and yes, they have to live with the consequences of that choice, including backing the Democratic Party when it comes to equal rights, even if some sleazy pastor offers them money to do the opposite. Whether they are Black Democratic legislators from Chicago or white Democratic legislators from Downstate, they double-crossed everyone—the voters, the Democratic Party, everyone.

    It is simply acknowledging reality to say that the Black legislators who voted “no” should be targeted first because their constituents support marriage equality even more heavily than the constituents of the white Democratic legislators from Downstate. The votes from many in the Black Caucus was a disservice to their constituents, so out they go, and it’s not racism to state that.

  • Ninong

    “H8 passed by a margin of 600,000 votes (7 million to 6.4 million). That’s using 10% of the total voters as black.”

    Clearly I wasn’t talking about “my estimate.” I was using CNN’s exit poll numbers and wanted to explain that they were using 10% as black because that was the black percentage among their respondents, which is why I said “that’s using 10% of the total voters as black.” Obviously I know what the population figures are for California, I lived there for 21 years.

    I also added the disclaimer at the bottom that the margin of error for the various breakdowns is going to be rather large. By the way, the AP numbers showed an even higher percentage of blacks voting in favor of H8.

  • Emerson

    I don’t understand this “I would like to see absolute protections for churches and religious
    organizations so they’re not pushed into something they don’t want[.]” There already is an absolute protection called the 1st Amendment, which has consistently held that a church does not have to do anything that conflicts with its system of belief. There is not a court in the land that could force a church to marry gays against its will.

  • FLL

    “But it’s the Democrats who represent their districts, and Illinois
    Democratic leadership generally, that is unwilling to challenge the GOTV
    power of these clergymen.”

    You’re on the right track, S1AMER, but remember that it takes money to get out the vote in order to benefit a particular legislator. Having grown up in Chicago, my instincts tell me that money is changing hands between these politically powerful Black clergymen and candidates for the Illinois House of Representatives. Political corruption (spelled m-o-n-e-y) is likely involved.

  • Bill_Perdue

    According to the census bureau blacks were 6.6% of the population of California in 2011 (it was 6.7% in 2000). http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html Obama was very popular in the black community but even given that 6.6% doesn’t quite add up to your estimate that “That’s using 10% of the total voters as black.”

    1) Blacks in California could not have been the deciding factor. There were neither the numbers or the intent. I expect that people who claim that we lost the vote in black communities are correct but if anyone says that we lost the vote because of the vote in black communities they’re dead wrong.

    2) The polls in California showed us winning until late in the game. At present, just 38% of likely voters are backing the initiative, while 55% are intending to vote No. This compares to a 42% Yes and 51% No distribution of preferences in July. California Field Poll 2287 Release Date and Time: 6:00 a.m., Thursday, September 18, 2008 http://field.com/fieldpollonline/subscribers/Rls2287.pdf

    The same numbers showed up in late October “In its final pre-election survey, The Field Poll shows the No-side continuing to prevail over the Yesside but by a narrower margin than previously. The poll, completed one week before the election, shows 49% of likely voters voting No, 44% on the Yes side and 7% undecided. #2292 Release Date and Time: 6:00 a.m., Friday, October 31, 2008 http://www.field.com/fieldpollonline/subscribers/Rls2292.pdf

    What changed all that was Obama, whose ‘gawd;s in the mix’ galvanized the bigot vote, the lack of response by Democrats and their front groups in EQCA and No on 8 and the the fact that they did little or no campaigning in in the communities of people of color. Democrats, then and now, are Eurocentric.

    As I said in my original post, the problem is not blacks, it’s Democrats and Republicans.

  • FLL

    “…a huge number of commenters here immediately bundle all Blacks as having the same views as the views of any church leaders of “traditional Black churches”, facts be damned.”

    And a huge number of commenters on this thread don’t conflate the views of all Black voters with the views of pastors of traditional Black churches. I have stated, as have a number of other posters, that the problem is that members of the Black Caucus did not represent the wishes of their own African-American constituents, who support marriage equality by about 60%. That is flat out political corruption, particularly when Black politicians are responding to promises of campaign contributions or threats of contribution boycotts made by Black pastors. And yes, the same dynamic operates when white pastors in Downstate Illinois try to corrupt white Democratic legislators with financial threats. Those members of the Black Caucus who have allowed themselves to be corrupted in this way have got to go, and please don’t call that racism because it’s not. Does that clear things up for you, mirror? If not, please tell me what still confuses you.

  • You called me a racist. You wrote that I have a deep discomfort with African-Americans. And now you’re upset that my response wasn’t all daisies and puppies? If you come here to launch personal below-the-belt attacks on people, you should expect that they’re going to respond to your forcefully.

  • Deep discomfort? No, I have a deep discomfort with people who are anti-intellectual and who think progress will come on the backs of convenient lies. The only way we move forward is by honestly looking at where we’re falling short, and not calling everyone a racist, homophobic, cisgender misogynist every time they disagree with us simply because we know we can shut the conversation down because the truth hurts us too much to let it be discussed publicly. I think you’ll find far more posts on this blog supporting the black community than criticizing it. But that doesn’t serve the “Outrage Inc” agenda of shutting down all conversation that might reach a conclusion they don’t agree with. I’m sorry, but I didn’t become a writer and a civil rights activist in order to lie to people and shut down honest intellectual analysis of where we are and what we need to do to finally win.

  • That’s interesting.

  • I’d really prefer that folks attempt to present their point of view in a civil manner. It doesn’t get us anywhere having you call everyone a racist who disagrees with you about whip counts. I could just as easily call you a homophobe and a racist for attacking me and others in the comments. But I’d rather have an intelligent civil discussion about what went wrong in Illinois.

  • Jim Olson

    I have come to believe that we will not get any help from the Supreme Court.

  • FLL

    I can’t believe you’re actually quoting the nasty, mean-spirited question from the Black Caucus asking gay people to piss off and try to find some Republican votes, seeing as the current Republican Party is the headquarters of American homophobia. Please go back to the Black politicians who said that—the ones you admire so much—and tell them to go get some Republican votes themselves when they want to pass anything that’s important to the African-American community. Doesn’t feel quite the same when the shoe is on the other foot, does it, smartass?

  • Ninong

    Bill, I didn’t make the claim that the African-American vote alone was responsible for the passage of Prop. H8, if that’s what you’re getting at. I do make the claim that African-Americans voted in favor of H8 by a larger majority than any other racial group.

    If you use CNN’s figures, then the numerical difference between blacks who voted for H8 and those who voted against it would be 536,000. H8 passed by a margin of 600,000 votes (7 million to 6.4 million). That’s using 10% of the total voters as black. CNN also reported 18% of voters were Latino and they voted 53% to 47% in favor of H8. So that would be a margin of victory for H8 of 145,000 among Latinos.

    I didn’t get into all the other breakdowns but I did add religion into the mix to show that it wasn’t just race that determined the passage of H8. In general, we can summarize the other breakdowns by saying that H8 failed miserably among those under the age of 30, so that’s a good sign.

    Only 47% of those who claimed to be a college graduate voted for H8, compared to 58% of those who said they were not a college graduate. Only 40% of those who claimed a postgraduate degree voted in favor of H8. Only 21% of white Democrats voted for H8, as well as only 41% of white independents.

    All of those numbers are based on a relatively small sample size of only 2,240 respondents, so obviously the margin of error for the various breakdowns is going to be rather large.

  • I didn’t define the black community, the black community along with the Jewish community, Latino community, gay community defined itself as a community. And for years, decades really, we have looked at how those self-defined voting blocs voted in elections, and how those self-defined voting blocs vote in congress vote. Many a time we’ve seen GOP photos of all white men at some event, and we comment on it – during the Romney campaign there was some event that was all white, and we commented on it. We’ve often commented on the “old white men” of the GOP doing some inanity or another. You just can’t define yourself as a community, as a voting bloc, and then claim that every reference to that voting bloc is bigoted. Did 96% of blacks and 76% of gays vote for Obama or didn’t they? Are we permitted to look at that data in the future, or not?

    And you seem to think that we’ve never given Bill Clinton a hard time for his selling us out on DOMA and DADT. That’s either because you’re not gay, you don’t read this blog, or both.

  • That’s the problem. We can’t dissect an election result and figure out what went wrong, and target that bloc of legislators in the future, if it’s per se racist to determine that the Black Caucus wasn’t there for us, but it’s not racist to determine that the Latino caucus isn’t there for us on some legislation we’re considering. This again goes back to my “Outrage Inc” post. We’re so busy being outraged by everything, that we impede progress.

  • We can’t get Republican votes the same reason the black community can’t get Republican votes. Because they tend to hate all of us. And we routinely vilify Republicans for it. So, unfortunately, if we’re going to get anything done for gays, blacks, women, Latinos or anyone else, we need the help of our friends. And when our friends aren’t there, and they say “why do you expect your friend to help, when your enemy won’t,” I reply, yeah I expect my friends to help me even when my enemy won’t. Their bigotry is no excuse for yours.

  • FLL

    The members of the Black Caucus are guilty as hell for not following the wishes of their own constituents in African-American districts. The point I’m making in my comments on this thread is that the problem is not the voters, but the Democratic politicians who are probably taking campaign money from pastors. Those politicians need to be replaced. Look at the polls for support in the various demographic groups. OK, now do you agree with my basic premise that if this had been a ballot initiative, marriage equality would have won?

  • Perhaps you haven’t noticed WHY the GOP is not going to vote for this. They live abject fear of the Tri-Cornered hat mob.

  • mac

    I live in washington state. I am sure that this will soon pass in Illinopis if for now othert reason than embarrassment that it occured earlier in po-dunk states. I share your dissapointment. Now is not the time to discuss but my concern is for the collateral damage the clergy is doing to the African American community

  • the motivations of the black caucus in the Illinois house are cowardly. Abraham Lincoln is spinning in his grave. Black politicians who voted this down should be sent packing in very short order. They should bare the fury of the people who supported them in their struggles for equality. Shame on them.

  • Ed Adams

    They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want the Dems as a block to support bills that disproportionately affect the black community and which few Republicans will vote for. But when it comes to LGBT issues they often are happy to break ranks and side with the GOP against gays. The comment by one of the black caucus members that they’re tired of being lobbied by the gays and the gays should find republican votes instead is about as clear a statement of their political hypocrisy as can be. It shows that the Democratic Party needs to figure out a way to discipline these anti-gay members.

  • Bill_Perdue

    Not a penny to the bigots in Republican party either. They’re just as bad.

  • Ed Adams

    Remember how quickly Obama and the DNC jumped onto the gay train once they realized that the threats to withhold campaign contributions by the gay community were real?

    Don’t give a cent to any Illinois Democrat or Democratic organization until they sort out this mess.

  • Bill_Perdue

    What was the ‘numerical’ vote for 8 among the various ethnicities.

    Where did the CNN and AP polls come from? How many precincts in what cities? LA? Bakersfield? Oakland? Roseville? The problem is that they didn’t say and we don’t know and that missing information is telling.

    Were there enough Black voters or registered voters statewide to constitute a swing vote given the overwhelmingly larger votes from Euro Americans and Latinos?

    Obama’s blatant bigotry ‘gawd’s in the mix’ galvanized the bigot vote from all communities. As in Illinois, Democrats and Republicans, not blacks as a group, are the problem.

  • mac

    What I never understand is the eagerness of the clergy to
    dish their friends and support their enemies. I continue to see this each and
    every week . In my opinion this is definitely
    having an adverse effect. If the gay community
    is unwilling to talk about this for fear of being labeled racist, if the gay community continues to say the gay community
    needs to work harder to obtain our ends, if the clergy is going to continue to divide
    our communities and if the Black Caucus is tired of dealing with the gay issues
    the other side has won and will continue to erode both communities.

  • Ninong

    If you’re “dreading” the upcoming decisions because you expect total defeat, then I think you will be pleasantly surprised. My only concern is the scope of the decisions. I’m hoping that we might get some help from John Roberts. He’s going to be Chief Justice for a very long time and I believe he may be looking to the future and want to be on the right side now.

  • Ninong

    Exit poll interviews with actual voters, showed that 70% of African-Americans voted for H8. The majority of white voters voted against H8. Did the voters lie to the people doing the exit polls?

    A later analysis by the NGLTF claimed that black support for H8 was only about 58% but they reviewed the vote in only five counties to come up with that estimate. In any event, African-American voters strongly supported keeping marriage as between one man and one woman and denying gays the freedom to marry. Is that what you call reliving that racial nonsense?

    Obviously there are other ways to break down the vote, too. Fifty-five percent of self-identified Catholics voted for H8. Sixty-six percent of Protestants supported H8. Only 17% of self-identified Jewish voters voted in favor of H8.

  • concernedcitizen1212

    “…then talking down to them….”
    Wait, didn’t you just repeatedly refer to her as ‘dear’? Ha ha ha.

  • rikyrah

    after all that gays did for them?


    Black folks were the one who got their asses beat..

    hoses put on them..

    dogs sicced on them….

  • rikyrah

    there are 10 downstate Democrats that would not vote for it. even if every Black Democrat in the Illinois House voted for it, it wouldn’t have passed.

    I see you left that out of your post.

    as one of the Black Dems said in the article..

    How come the Gay community can’t get REPUBLICAN VOTES?

    If you want it to pass…find Republican votes….

  • climate3

    This is why I hate when things like this happen. The other side wins, and then reaps extra benefits when we attack one another. The problem is that there is always one dumb ass willing to vent rather than look beyond the headlines and said dumb ass doesn’t care what he says or how his “righteously indignant statements” does more harm than good. There is a middle ground. IF there is a problem with the Black Caucus, then that shows that there is work to be done to further engage the Black Community as a whole in this battle. And don’t give me any shit about what folks have done so far. It’s obvious that it wasn’t enough. Rather than bitch, whine, moan, and point fingers, learn the lessons, particularly the one from Maryland. The same thing happened there a couple of years ago for pretty much the same reasons. As I understand it, the folks there made an expressed effort to engage the black community. Now Maryland has marriage equality which withstood a referendum.

  • TeaTime

    This is it ^^^! Noting that people (activists) cannot let the republicans off the hook because they in mass would not vote for marriage equality.

  • TeaTime

    “Sorry your pastor says (Jeebus) hates grown up words. That’s your fucking problem, not mine.” That statement says so much more about you than I could ever write. Hint: not a good thing!

  • TeaTime

    Tighty whities – YES, but not because they are white. At least someone has a sense of humor. Also, not very sensitive, just pointing out the obvious. The only time race is an issue is when it is about a minority group — look at his other posts on various topics, particularly the marriage vote in states. If everyone was “called” out equally when appropriate, I would have no issue with his statement but that is not the case.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Do you usually find that slurring people and then talking down to them is an effective means of “engaging” and “moving” them? Fuck you.

  • Katie B

    I tried once to engage you and move you away from racial animosity, but you decided clearly long before I entered the conversation that anyone expressing an opinion counter to your belief that it’s the black people’s fault is homophobic, racist, sexist and some other mean words.

    It’s clearly impossible to have a reasoned conversation with you, so I’m going to tell you this instead:

    GO TO BED, CHILD. You are clearly being cranky and contrary for the sake of being cranky and contrary.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Which group convenes every Sunday morning to hear the other condemned to hell? (A) Gays or (B) blacks?

    P.S. Sorry your pastor says Jeebus hates grown up words. That’s your fucking problem, not mine.

  • TeaTime

    Because you overuse the charge of homophobia time the wind blows…. Btw, what did gays (particularly white gays) do for blacks during the civil rights movement?

  • TeaTime

    “F” me — you are starting to crack and everyone here can now see it. The only people you see on Sunday morning are blacks? Is that a limited channel thing?

    BTW, I guess GoProud was such a wonderful gay friendly organization that really pushed the gay agenda. You should join.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Oh, sorry, do you not like casual slurring when it’s aimed at you? How hypocritical of you. If you want to gay-bash, you can wear the homophobe label.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Sexist too, huh?

  • ronbo

    If you have not heard it yet today. I love you.

  • TeaTime

    It’s just so hard to hide isn’t it — “racially self-designated faction…”. Yes, republicans that removed their chairman for supporting SB10 and the leading candidate withdrawing for the same reason. Let’s see how that works for you!

  • ronbo

    “Inappropriate”? My God, you ARE a bigot. Equality is never inappropriate.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    First, fuck you.

    Second, which group convenes every Sunday morning to hear the other condemned to hell? Gays or blacks?

    Didn’t answer the question, did you?

    I’ll add another. Which Democratic position of concern to the black community do gay officeholders sabotage?

  • Katie B

    I think his whities are a little TOO tighty this morning.

  • TeaTime

    Wow, again mistaken. You’re making it a habit!

  • Katie B

    So a married lesbian who lives in a state that just passed marriage (by healthy majorities in both houses) is a “homophobe” now.

  • TeaTime

    First, language. Second, you give yourself way too much credit. Look to the Hispanic community. Third, you only voted for Obama to appease the Black Community – hahaha!

    BTW, the numbers were analyzed and although the overall election was within a few points, the states (particularly counties) in which the first Black President won averaged more than a 10% difference. Checkout the breakdown for Ohio for example.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    You aren’t looking at anything. You’re just gay-bashing, homophobe.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    It’s really too bad you refuse to direct your scorn and aggression toward bigotry and hypocrisy in the black community. But, alas, no. That must never, ever be confronted. We know.

  • Katie B

    You’re not going to do it by screaming at them, that’s for sure.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Yes, it would be quite useful to figure out how to get a racially self-designated faction to support the platform of the Democratic Party instead of telling part of the supposed Democratic coalition to go find Republican votes, wouldn’t it?

  • S1AMER

    The true cause of the Illinois failure is powerful clergy and timid politicians. That, more than anything else, is the lesson we should learn now and the problem we must continue to tackle in the future.

    Yes, except for the Catholic hierarchy in Illinois, the leadership against us has come from a few powerful black clergymen. But it’s the Democrats who represent their districts, and Illinois Democratic leadership generally, that is unwilling to challenge the GOTV power of these clergymen. Again, though the clergymen are mostly black and so were the state repreentatives who wouldn’t vote for marriage, the true problem is the rise of religious power in America and politicians who are unwilling to challenge that power.

  • Katie B

    LOL. “Blaming the victim.” Marriage won in three state legislatures this year and lost in one. Looking at what mistakes were made in the state where it lost is 100% valid.

    And “homophobic”? That’s absolutely hilarious.

  • TeaTime

    Never answered the question did you. Truer colors are so hard to hide, must be very toxic and taxing.

  • ronbo

    It’s really quite simple. Stick with the facts, TeaTime. If there were a White Caucus, it would be identified as the white caucus. But, since there is no white caucus, it would be an error to label it as such.


    So very sensitive. Do you object to tighty whities also?

  • TeaTime

    Lets just say that you don’t disappoint! You are everything that I expected you would [and ever will] be!

  • TeaTime

    My outrage will be to hold those accountable for their vote or in this case non-vote. It is not to make it a convenient racial issue. This will come up again in the veto session and instead of (again) making it a racial issue, you would be best served in figuring out how those that would have voted against SB10 can be flipped or removed (difficult as most are in solid districts).

  • Skeptical Cicada

    LOL! Not sure when *I* became the gay caucus in the Illinois legislature. And, dear, I call a big pile of homophobic blaming the victim on your ass. It’s so much easier for you to gay-bash than blame the Black Caucus for its sabotaging of the bill, isn’t it?

  • Skeptical Cicada

    I didn’t organize a caucus along racial lines and sabotage a bill in racial unison. The Black Caucus did that. You can run from blaming the Black Caucus for sabotaging the bill all you want. The crickets you’re hearing are your refusal to call out black bigotry and hypocrisy.

  • Katie B

    Skeptical Cicada, I call a big pile of racist bullshit. I will stand on TeaTime’s side and not yours because you are putting together a correlation that I can guarantee the data will not support. When the data come in for Illinois, I can almost guarantee that the same mistakes that were made in California in 2008 were repeated. You decided you didn’t have to work with the liberal religious community, ignored the potential of building alliances, tried to browbeat people, and got thrashed.

  • TeaTime

    It’s not a refusal to hold anyone responsible for their vote or lack of. It is with people like you that make it a “Black” issue when it is convenient but when the opposite occurs, there are cricket sounds from people like you.

    OK, you called out the “Black” caucus, now show me the post where you (again) characterized other opposition as a WHITE problem. I laid out the example for you. There were no blacks on the Senate Judiciary Committee that failed to include gays in the I.B. So, lets say it together, in this instance, WHITES were the problem.

  • TeaTime

    Oh BTW: now, try yelling the word [homophobe] another time or two. Maybe there’s
    still a milligram of meaning left in the word, but I doubt it.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    I know that’s why you refuse to hold the Black Caucus responsible for their actions. Standard vehement defense of everything antigay thing a black leader does. Really, dear. We’re used to that from people like you.

  • TeaTime

    Cannot do it can you because it becomes harder to look in the mirror and realize that the people that screwed ‘me’ also look like me — it’s not just the other guy!!

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Let me see you write “the Black Caucus sabotaged marriage equality in Illinois to cater to bigots in the black church,” racist homophobe.

    Yes, yes, I know. No African American who discriminates against gays can ever be called a hypocrite because discriminating against gays is nothing at all like discriminating against blacks. We know. We’ve heard that bigotry for years.

  • TeaTime

    You know this isn’t about black bigotry/hypocrisy. It is about people like RJ and yourself that try to say it’s there problem and not ours. Again, where are your posts calling out the WHITE community? Didn’t WHITE men just stop the inclusion in the immigration bill as I mentioned. Let me see you write it. It was WHITES that screwed us on immigration.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Check out the fucking gay vote for the first black president, racist homophobe.

    Which group convenes every Sunday morning to hear the other condemned to hell? Gays or blacks?

  • TeaTime

    What vote did the gay community support that affect blacks (have their back)? How did the black caucus vote on DADT? Again, looking for a scapegoat!

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Sabotage the bill in unison as the Black Caucus; get blamed in unison as the Black Caucus. Deal with it, racist.

    When NOM and FOF are part of the Democratic “coalition,” let me know, racist. Sorry, you think bigoted black ministers should never, ever be called out. That’s your fucking psychological dysfunction.

  • TeaTime

    It serves his purpose and agenda to “call out” the Black Caucus. Ask him to show you his posts when he called out “WHITE” Senators or House members. Again, he never characterize their opposition as a WHITE problem. Take NOM or FOF, WHITE organizations. He has never mentioned WHITE in his posts but religion. Conversely, when it is black ministers, he is SURE to state BLACK ministers.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Aw, what’s wrong. Don’t I fit your simple-minded, racist view of the world?

    Act in unison as the Black Caucus to sabotage a gay-rights bill, get blamed in unison as the Black Caucus for sabotaging a gay-rights bill. Deal with it.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Yeah, trying to get people to ignore exit polls in favor of disinformation cooked up by Gay Inc. hasn’t really succeeded, has it?

  • TeaTime

    Laughable post at best. You have never fought racism in your life — kind of hard when you look in the mirror every morning. Also, where is your outrage at the WHITE community?

    Didn’t they (WHITES) just screw you on the immigration bill? DID you “call out” the WHITE Senators. Oh wait, is wasn’t characterize as a WHITE problem.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Too bad you can’t muster an ounce of outrage for the self-designated Black Caucus for deliberately sabotaging the marriage equality bill on the orders of bigoted black churches. But somehow it isn’t racist to refuse ever to acknowledge black bigotry and black hypocrisy.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Poor dear. So sorry that it makes you uncomfortable that the self-designated Black Caucus sabotaged the marriage equality bill in catering to bigots in the black church. I’m sure you’d feel so much more comfortable if we’d pretend not to notice. But we’re no longer pretending not to notice black bigotry and black hypocrisy. Deal with it.

    Now, try yelling the word “racist” another time or two. Maybe there’s still a milligram of meaning left in the word, but I doubt it.

  • TeaTime

    Just as others should show your continue racist bias in your writings. So that the next time you are on TV espousing your views, there is the same outrage as when CNN gives Focus on the Family a forum.

  • Bill_Perdue


  • Skeptical Cicada

    Oh, look, transjacking.

    You ran to the EEOC and got your special employment discrimination protection without lifting a finger to include sexual orientation. Sorry, I don’t do one-way solidarity. You’re on your own.

  • TeaTime

    If race is not irrelevant, then it was WHITES that stopped gays from being included in the immigration reform bill. BUT, do you or John (racist personified) ever characterize it as a white problem? NO!. The
    ONLY time he will bring up race is when he wants to stress it is a black problem.

    Remember the photo post of those ALLEGED to has committed the crime after the Knick’s game. Let us not forget RJ’s (racist John) statement based solely on a photo and not just about those in a photo but anyone who may possible know the people. Additionally, there have been many WHITES on TV (honey boo boo and others) that have spoken bad English but RJ seems to never write a post of how ignorant
    and uneducated these people are — why because they are white and hit to close to home.

    I will continue to spread the word about this person (RJ) although others have begun to seem his true character.

    Also, RJ is the one who is trying to rewrite the history of Prop8 to serve his own racist theme. BY the way, it was a WHITE POTUS that signed DOMA & DADT. Oh, and blacks had so much to do w/the ban on gays donating blood.

  • Bill_Perdue

    They’re Democrats, what exactly did you expect?

  • Bill_Perdue

    Obama sent an ever so impressive letter to a breakfast meeting of the AB Toklas Stonewallers insisting that Prop 8 was ‘unnecessary’. Bide put out a press release saying the same. It’s still ‘unnecessary’ because he and the Democrats absolutely refuse to repeal Bill Clintons DOMA just as, after 40 years, they pigheadedly refuse to pass ENDA.

    Democrats (and their Republican cousins) are the problem. They, and their front groups EQCA and No on 8 never said a word about Obama’s bigotry or tried to undermine his work in empowering and galvanizing the bigot vote.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    LOL! Your game is obvious, Mark. The only way you will level any blame at the Black Caucus is amid blaming everyone, including the victims. And that means blaming no one. You won’t dare examine what role the Black Caucus played. You won’t dare consider how the issue polled in their districts. You won’t dare consider what specially disgusting quotes came from them. No, your white guilt demands that they be protected from any special scrutiny or particularized blame.

    Go bash white gay advocates and make yourself feel like a big race savior, white guilt boy. You’re pathetic.

  • Bill_Perdue

    Actually the opposite happens and it emanates from the White House Office of Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships which has been a vehicle for the party in power to bribe cult leaders since it was proposed during the Clinton years. Since then it’s been used by Bush and Obama to influence political decisions and reward friends.

  • Bill_Perdue

    The problem in Illinois is a problem caused by Democrats, not by Blacks (by which I mean the black population of Illinois). Certainly Black cult leaders contributed to it but our main enemy in Illinois, as elsewhere, is white or Euroamerican bigots in the roman, baptist, mormon and evangelical cults and the Democrats and Republicans they pander to.

    Blacks are no more responsible for this defeat than they were for the 2008 defeat in
    California. We were defeated in California in 2008 by Obama, not the black community. He attended Rick Warrens bigotfest and announced that he was a bigot
    who opposed marriage equality because ‘gawd’s in the mix’. He said the same on MTV “I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay
    marriage. But when you start playing around with constitutions, just to
    prohibit somebody who cares about another person, it just seems to me that’s
    not what America’s about.” He opposed Prop 8 on the grounds that it wasn’t
    necessary. No on 8. EQCA and other Democrats refused to call him on his bigotry
    but Yes on 8 went to town rebroadcasting his remarks in hundreds of ads and
    hundreds of thousands of robocalls. The polls, which has been in our favor, flipped
    and we lost unnecessarily and unexpectedly.

    The problem is Democrats. Even if every black legislator voted for us we’d still lose because of Republicans and downstate Democrats.

    The US is a sewer of bigotries and the most enduring and harmful is racism,
    followed by misogyny, homophobia and, during periods of immigration, immigrant

    A big part of the problem is that GLBT Democrats and Democrats in general pander to the cults by letting them fester in communities of people of color and in the social group that hold our largest number of enemies – white cultists in the roman, baptist and mormon cults. In California the largest numerical vote against us was among EuroAmerican bigots influenced by the cults. Eurocentric LGBT leaders of the Democrat run EQCA and No on 8 ignored the black and Latino/a communities who are, when combined with Asians and Pacific Islanders, the majority in California.

    The central lesson to be drawn from this is that both parties are infested with bigots and that we need to leave them in the dust and build mass action alliances to coerce legislators to adopt our agenda. The secondary lesson is that the GLBT communities are multiethnic and that as long as Democrats and state equality groups refuse to fight for equality in every community we stand a chance of being defeated.

  • CJ

    Beats voting for bigots of any stripe pal. You know you aren’t getting anywhere with these guys, so time to do something different. And the governor can’t do anything as it is anyway, so that becomes moot. When someone opposes equality that ought to be supporting it, you get rid of them. If we wanted Republican life, we’d just vote Republican. Get rid of the Democratic incumbents that caused this tonight and refuse to support the party’s candidate until they have one that supports us. Simple as that.

  • rmthunter

    Considering what’s going on in the surrounding states — Wisconsin, Indiana, Michigan — with legislatures under Republican control, that cure may be worse than the disease. A GOP legislature would hamper Gov. Quinn’s ability to do anything, and while he’s not the most inspiring governor we’ve ever had, he’s kept us solvent, he’s not handing over all of our public assets to private corporations, he’s not trying to destroy the unions, and he’s not giving tax breaks to corporations that the rest of us have to pay for. And I strongly doubt that we could purge the bigots out of the Democratic caucus — downstate is another world, more akin to Kentucky and Missouri than anything else. Those voters will vote Democratic as long as those Democrats vote like Republicans.

  • CJ

    Maybe you should go back to the crib and get a new line. Truth is blacks have stabbed gays in the back whether you want to admit it or not, and your overused charges of racism every time the wind blows are making people laugh at you. How do I know this? Because I grew up in southern Illinois and that is the biggest reason blacks are disliked by the population down there: because they abuse their status to get all the breaks in life and every time something happens they don’t like, they cry “racism.” Well get a new line pal, and just admit the truth: blacks have indeed betrayed another minority that helped them attain their rights in years past, and are hypocrites for doing so. They should be 100% behind the gays, not just a little over half. They should be overwhelmingly in our corner, yet it’s clear they aren’t.

  • samNH

    Where is the IRS when you need it?

  • CJ

    Leave your racism charges at the door. They should be 100% behind anyone being discriminated against, not just barely over half. They have indeed betrayed a group that did a lot to help them attain their civil rights, and that has nothing to do with racism. People like you are the reason racism still exists. Why? Because you overuse the charge of racism every time the wind blows, and that is something I definitely know to be true in southern Illinois. So if I were you, I’d get a reality check and realize that charges of racism every time something happens that you don’t like are actually damaging your credibility every time.

  • MonicaR62

    Okay, since you want to go there and proclaim a marginalized community needs to have 100% support of gay equality measures, what’s the gay community’s excuse for not giving 100% support for trans equality measures such as GENDA in New York or the trans right bill in Maryland just o name two?

  • cole3244

    its ironic that the extremely religious black community will probably throw its support to the right when it comes to gay rights, others died to help get the black vote and rights but now some in the black community refuse to do the same because of the ridiculous excuse that being gay is a choice, religious fanatics can always find a reason to hate no matter the color.

  • AAK Alan

    Obviously, you haven’t even got a glimmer of independent rational thought. This post is just another quasi-literate hate screed. You don’t even realize that everyone is laughing at your embarrassing rant, do you?

    Get a life and get out of the closet! Or, at very least, take your meds.

  • AAK Alan

    Any Democrat who refused to support this bill should be punished, whether it be the rural butt-kissers or the prejudiced Black caucus. Why? Because refusing to support this is a direct conflict with all Democratic principles.

    It is time for there to be a price to pay. The Governor and the Party should make it clear to those who crumbled in the face of religious bigotry that 1) they will have well-funded primary opposition and 2) they will receive neither financial nor logistical support from the party.

    If they really want to vote like Republicans to cover their asses with the right-wing and hate-mongering segments of their electorate, then they should have the courage to BE Republicans.

    Do you really think the Black Caucus would enjoy having to answer to the Tea Party?

  • Monoceros Forth

    Get back to me when God improves His aim.

  • Mark_in_MN

    If anyone is diverting blame, it is you and others who insist that the only people to be called out are the members of the Black caucus. Call them out. Call out the rural Democrats from downstate. Call out the failures of our own organizations in Illinois. All concentrating on only the one group does is do exactly what your falsely projecting onto me, diverting blame. All of these groups are to blame. All of these groups have failed to live up to what is good and right and necessary. All of them.

  • Jim Olson

    Someone should ban this lunatic from this blog.

  • Jim Olson

    Thank you, SC. Thank you for saying this. Let’s remember that Bayard Rustin, a gay man, was virtually second in command of the civil rights movement behind MLK. This is a history that has been forgotten.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    You absolutely object to calling out anyone who is black who blocked the bill. You’re in a hysterical frenzy to divert blame.

    You should get out of Minnesota more. Perhaps a visit to downstate Illinois would do you some good. Do you have Ku Klux Klan units operating in rural Minnesota? They have plagued downstate Illinois for years. Downstate Illinois is culturally the South. It is not rural Minnesota.

    In contrast, those districts in Chicago are not. They support marriage equality. Yet which caucus blocked the vote on the bill? Oh, you couldn’t say, because your dysfunctional white liberal guilt won’t let you say it. I know. Poor, dear. You’d have to self-flagellate if you noticed race.

    Yes, yes, Mark. By all means, degenerate into such a fit of diversion that you even place principal blame on the victims. That is certainly in keeping with your white liberal guilt, isn’t it? It must be white gays who are to blame for their own oppression. It’s okay to say that because they’re white.

    Pathetic, and hopelessly transparent.

  • Mark_in_MN

    What I do know is that in Minnesota we too have Democrats (DFLers in Minnesota) who come from outstate and conservative districts. Many of those districts voted for the anti-marriage amendment last fall, often by large margins. It can’t be said that their constituents support marriage equality. And yet, we lost only 2 in DFLers in the House and 3 DFLers in the Senate. Most of those Democrats from outstate districts that voted heavily for the amendment banning marriage equality found it within themselves to vote for marriage equality. Some might lose their seat over it. Marriage equality is coming in Minnesota because of those legislators. It couldn’t have passed without them.

    I don’t object to calling out any members who have turned their back on equality or acted cowardly when courage and doing the right thing was needed. They need to be held to account. Being African American or having a heavily African American constituency gives them no pass. But I do object to pointing the figure at the African American members of the House alone, while giving a pass to those rural Democratic lawmakers who have just as badly betrayed what is good, right, and proper.

    I object even more strongly to passing the blame onto those we label as bigots and hypocrites (however correctly the label may be applied) while not turning critical appraisal on the organizations and leaders who should be organizing and winning this thing (and should have done so long before the last day of the session). The focus should be what can the LGBT community and organizations and allies in Illinois (and across the nation) can do, and do differently, between now and when the next chance comes so that we are celebrating rather than casting blame everywhere but close to home.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Aw, mirror, is a down arrow the best you can manage? Really?

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Eric Bohlman mentioned distorted figures that compare the black population–concentrated in Chicago–with the white population–most of whom are downstate. In effect, he was being quite cute in giving you an upstate figure for blacks and a downstate figure for whites. What percentage of whites in upstate do you imagine support marriage equality? My guess: 70+%. Guess where the Democratic power base is: upstate or downstate?

    And his figures are quite damning for the Black Caucus. Since they mostly come from districts with those 60% supporters of marriage equality, how is it that they refused to support the bill?

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Really? Of the Democratic reps from the Chicago area–all in districts with majority support for marriage equality–which ones supported the bill, and which ones blocked it? Was it the White Caucus?

  • Skeptical Cicada

    You are absolutely falling all over yourself to attack anyone who points a finger of blame at the Black Caucus. Having fought racism in the South since I was a kid–including in my own damn family–I’m not paralyzed by your dysfunctional white liberal guilt. I have absolutely nothing to prove on race. I also see who blocked a vote on the bill, and I have no reluctance calling them out for it.

    Tell me, Mark, what percentage of voters support marriage equality in the districts of those downstate white Democrats? Apparently some 60% of voters support marriage equality in those upstate majority black districts. Do you think the number is 60% in those downstate districts? If you do, you don’t know much about downstate Illinois.

    So we have some Democratic reps from the Chicago area. They are all from districts with majorities supporting gay marriage. What is there position? Well, the white ones supported marriage equality. Which ones didn’t? Which ones sniffed, “Go find some Republican votes”?

  • mirror

    It is completely irrelevant. The relevant issue is the power of a subset of a particular ethnic group who have a certain set of religious beliefs and whose power exceeds the number of people whose votes they would like people to believe they represent. The color of anyone’s skin is irrelevant, and we are lucky that is true.

  • Mark_in_MN

    I’m not falling all over myself to excuse bigotry or hypocrisy by African Americans or anyone else. I’m saying that we need to pay attention to failures in more than one area. Or maybe focusing only on the Black caucus votes, you and others are falling all over themselves to excuse rural white bigotry and hypocrisy. And anything to avoid placing any blame on advocates for failing to achieve the necessary goals to get this to pass instead of blaming it all on bigotry and hypocrisy. Blaming it entirely on those people isn’t going to help us win in the future, in Illinois or elsewhere.

    But, yes, Speaker Madigan, by virtue of his being the chamber’s leader and his failure to either get the votes or force people on record is blameworthy to be sure.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    What you are doing is making yourself a homophobic apologist for the Black Caucus.

    We know that rural downstaters hate gays, dear, now tell us how many white voters in Cook County support marriage equality, because that 60% figure for black voters comes almost entirely from Cook County.

    Sorry, but I’ve fought real racism in the South since I was a kid and have nothing to prove. Your pathetic attempt to exploit white guilt in the cause of antigay bigotry has absolutely no impact on me.

  • mirror

    That is the most knee-jerk right-wing talking point comment I have ever seen made by you. Why don’t you just have the guts to call me a shallow ignorant dumbshit?

    Seriously, go inside yourself and find the part of you that latched on to that phrase as the best response to my comment. Then do an in-depth analysis of that part of your reality framework to find out if you really want to identify with it anymore.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Actually, it’s important for your ideological objective to compare apples and oranges.
    Tell us, how does that 60% figure for black voters (the vast majority of whom live in Cook County) compare with the figure for similarly situated white voters–i.e. white voters who ALSO live in Cook County? Stop playing games with statistics by dragging down the white percentage by tossing in downstate voters.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    I would not. Race is not irrelevant. I applaud John for the courage to acknowledge it.

  • mirror

    Lots of people are declaring independence from enslavement to bigoted cultural programing and trying to leave their bigotries behind. Maybe you can too.

    “According to a new NBC/Wall Street Journal poll,
    just four years ago the majority of African-American voters opposed gay
    marriage, 32%-53%. Those numbers have essentially flipped with now a
    majority in favor, 51% – 37%.”


  • In truth, I’d change the title of this post to read, “Illinois fails to pass gay marriage bill, black cowardly, politically homophobic Democratic caucus reportedly a problem”.

  • Blasphemer. Jesus never said he was God Himself. He said he was the Son of Man. I’d include chapter and verse, but it’d be a list with more than 80 entries.

    Oh, and by the way? You’re a fucking lunatic. I’m sorry, but there’s no cure for that, or for terminal case of stupid with which you are sadly afflicted. Buh-bye.

    Oh, and repent your blasphemy or I’ll pray to Hecate to smite you.

  • Self-satisfied white centrism? And that’s not racist because…

  • Ignorant homophobic bigot.

    p.s. I’ll bet seeing gay guys actually makes you all hot and bothered, hence this ridiculous display of overcompensation.

    p.p.s. I’ll further wager your gladiator movie collection is (singing)AWE-some! (end singing)

    p.p.p.s. Go fuck yourself. No really, go do it. Your own hand is the only lover who will appreciate you for who you really are, plus you’ll stop bothering those of us who don’t live in an ignorant, myth-believing, Bronze-age theocratic culture.

  • mirror

    Agree strongly. Still, I’m guessing a lot these church leaders wish they could go wholly over to the GOP, but their congregations would abandon them.

  • mirror

    Note though, a significant majority of the “group” in Illinois support marriage equality, but you won’t distinguish between the “group” and the Christian leaders who frighten the House representatives. I’m all for targeting individual hypocrites or groups of hypocrites (ie, leaders of traditional Black churches, who should be viciously attacked as outrageously selfish hypocritical bigots), but what you and CJ are doing is just racist self-abuse.

  • Ed Adams

    cut off the spigot to illinois democrats and the democratic party until they get this wrong righted.

    this was a major betrayal.

  • Ed Adams

    but most of the whites against are republicans. we expect that.

    among democrats blacks are the least supportive group. that’s the statistic that matters. they expect us to have their backs on votes that affect them most directly, but then they can’t be bothered to support us. that’s the problem. that’s a problem that democratic party officials are going to have to remedy with sanctions and bad consequences for straying too far from the party lines. that goes for white dinos as well.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    John is right. The “debunking” of the exit polls was a bunch of b.s. orchestrated by Gay Inc.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Why don’t they BECOME Republicans since they support Republican bigotry?

  • mirror

    The difference is that a huge number of commenters here immediately bundle all Blacks as having the same views as the views of any church leaders of “traditional Black churches”, facts be damned. But, a distinction is made when discussing white support for marriage equality vs. Christian church support of marriage equality vs. evangelical Christian support etc.

    Commenters in this very thread were screaming “Black traitors” before Eric pointed that Blacks support marriage equality by 60% in Illinois. And here’s a report on the polling: “Black voters, perhaps following the lead of President Obama, think it should be legal by a 60/16 spread. That’s a much wider margin than we see with them nationally.”


    John’s hand wringing around around issues of race show a deep discomfort with African-Americans. I have ended up in the past few years spending a lot of time challenging fans of rap music and hip hop about the homophobia in certain artist’s lyrics. It is clear that there are a lot of self-hatin closet cases there and in the churches. There are a lot of people working hard to challenge the influence of the homophobic churches and homophobic sports and entertainment culture in the Black community, and their success can be seen by these Illinois polling numbers. Mainstream gays can do some of the same around their own self-satisfied white centrism and discomfort with Blacks and other minority groups.

  • Ed Adams

    bible babble. move on.

  • Some of them probably agree with this foaming-at-the-mouth lunatic.

  • Ed Adams

    a lot of them share those sentiments.

  • Ed Adams


  • Skeptical Cicada

    Sorry, that bullshit isn’t playing anymore. If you’re a member of a subordinated group and you block equality measures, you’re a goddamn hypocrite, whether you’re female, Jewish, gay, or–oh my god–even black.

  • Someone should show these comments to the members of the Illinois House.

  • John Lutz

    P . S .
    H O W M A N Y M O R E A T O M I C T O R N A D O E S R I G H T A F T E R
    ‘announcing’ F A G G O T A B O M I N A T I O N ‘week’ will it take

    B E F O R E Y O U R E P E N T O F Y O U R W I C K E D W A Y S …….???????????????????

  • Skeptical Cicada

    The president seems to have this odd notion that he shouldn’t lift a finger on gay rights. Where is that fucking ENDA executive order?

  • John Lutz

    “Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind, it is abomination.”
    Leviticus 18:22
    “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an
    abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood s h a l l be upon them.”
    Leviticus 20:13
    “Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they
    planted, they builded;
    But the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed
    t h e m all.”
    J E S U S ( G O D H I M S E L F ) ; Luke 17:28-29
    “And don’t forget the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns all full of lust of
    every kind including the lust of men for other men. Those cities were destroyed by fire and continue
    to be a warning to us that there is a hell in which sinners are punished.”
    Jude 1:7
    Would any of Y O U A B O M I N A T O R L O V E R S like to see the M O D E R N pictures
    and/or videos of the M I L L I O N S of sulfur balls (brimstone) that S T I L L surround the
    A S H E N remains and will B U R N through metal like H O T butter E V E N to this V E R Y
    Would Y O U

  • Skeptical Cicada

    Yes, bash the hell out of the Illinois Democratic Party with the biggest stick available.

  • Skeptical Cicada

    So it was BOTH the downstate white Democrats AND the upstate black Democrats. Feel better now? No, you don’t because you’re falling all over yourself to excuse black bigotry and black hypocrisy.

  • mirror

    Oh, I guess you are mostly speaking from racism and pure stupidity, rather than ignorance. Sorry to suggest otherwise above. Bigots gotta be called out.

  • mirror

    Targetting blacks as traitors to gays when 60% of blacks in Illinois are supporting marriage equality is just racist, but I’m hoping you are mostly speaking from ignorance. The problem is the political influence of black church leaders.

  • Mark_in_MN

    The President seems to have this odd notion that it is inappropriate to weigh in on state matters, at least not in any concerted way. Might it be some misguided notion of federalism? It seems to me that it’s not just LGBT matters he does this on. If there are examples of him weighing in on a state matter in a significant fashion, rather than some relatively quiet lip service or something after the fact, it would be interesting to see them.

  • Mark_in_MN

    Never mind that there were reportedly a number of downstate, rural Democrats who said or were leaning toward voting no. According to one reckoning, there were at least 11 of them, which happens to be exactly the margin above the needed 60 the Democrats have in the chamber. The failure, then, has nothing to do with them and a failure to secure more downstate Democrats? They don’t count?

    Putting the failure at the door of either the downstate Democrats or the Black caucus seems to me to be a futile game of trying to blame the other guy. Instead of who didn’t back it, we should be looking at what went wrong, what can be done to fix it, and what strategies need to be engaged to win at the next chance.

    And, maybe, the effort needs to be run like a campaign, even if it is legislators and not voters whose votes need to be won. There was at least one mightily impressive such campaign in pretty recent memory, the likes of which I’ve never seen. I’m sure they will share some pointers if asked.

  • I remember. In private, he was reportedly against it. In public, on the record, in front of cameras?


  • AdmNaismith

    He pulled that same shit here in CA when Prop 8 was on the ballot. Four yrs later and nothing has changed.

  • FLL

    I see PeteWa’s comment below, and I agree that it’s better to reply than downvote. Religiously motivated hate mongers hurt people of all races. Now if you and I were to keep score of how many posts John aims at white religious hate mongers and how many posts he aims at black religious hate mongers, I’m sure you and I could agree that in the history of this blog, John’s posts aimed at white hate clergymen outnumber the ones aimed at black clergymen by a factor of… what?… 100?… 300? Your comment refers to a post that might happen once a year? Once every two years? This is in comparison with the vast majority of John’s posts which address the anti-gay discrimination supported by exactly the white legislators that you mention.

    From your comment, someone would think that this one post about the role of Black pastors pressuring Black Democratic legislators is representative of most of the content of this blog. What’s up with that, huh? One post about the vote in the Illinois legislature and you flip out? Can I ask you for a more reasoned response? Then maybe you can keep that user name of yours.

  • Randy Riddle

    Just curious, but what denomination is predominant among the Black churches opposed to gay marriage in Illinois? And what about California?

    If you compare the two, even if different denominations are involved, you might see some common money pools at play.

    In NC, the head of the Baptist Convention might be running for Senate and the Baptists were big players in Amendment One in the state. My digging hinted at Art Pope/Americans for Prosperity money at play in that campaign.

  • PeteWa

    prepare for your downvotes!

  • Reasoned_Voice

    At least Coretta Scott King was honest enough addressing a problem in HER own community, unlike certain white activists who refuse to acknowledge the rampant and pervasive homophobia that exists in THEIR own communities, and instead prefer to blame it on a minority of blacks who can be scapegoated. How did you explain the repeal of the gay marriage vote in Maine in 2009?? Did you blame that on the 2-3% of Blacks living there too?

    You state that “it could very possibly be true that a lot of gays aren’t as accepting of racial minorities as they should be” For someone who spends a lot of time analyzing and writing about anti-gay prejudice among Blacks, it’s strange that you don’t have any knowledge of this phenomenon. Have you spoken to Gay Blacks who speak of the acute racism that exists among their white counterparts? Or are Black people invisible to you – except when its time to criticize and scapegoat them for denying you your rights as a gay white man? And Incidentally, the homophobia in the Black communities hurts Gay Blacks more than any other group, and gays as a whole are being discriminated via a system of state and federal laws implemented and maintained primarily by White legislators. So when you’re selectively using “data” to prove your racist ideas about Blacks, know that readers aren’t all stupid, okay?

    Finally, stop using Black activists’ words taken out of context to cover up your own unbridled racism. That is one of the most transparently racist things someone could do. It’s insulting and patronizing. I don’t recall ever seeing you quote King in the context of white racism against Blacks. And there were MANY such quotes, certainly far more than the quotes about homophobia in the Black community.

  • FLL

    That NPR link is a good catch on your part. I had guessed that the private fundraiser was the only event that Obama attended in Illinois that day, but my guess was wrong. Thanks for the link.

  • Ooh that’s interesting.

  • FLL

    I do think the current polling figures for support in Illinois that Eric Bohlman cites below are reasonable and accurate (African-American: 60%, white: 50% and Hispanic: 70%). When you add the undecided group, only a rather small percentage of anti-equality voters remain. The bitter irony here is that if this had been a ballot initiative, marriage equality would have won. With the Illinois public on our side, this definitely calls for political executions, since it’s the elected politicians (and perhaps their shadowy religious sugar daddies) who are the problem.

  • FLL

    I really suspect that some Black pastors promised campaign money to some Black Democrats in exchange for voting “no” in exactly the same way that some white pastors promised campaign money to some white Democrats from “Downstate” (central and southern) Illinois in exchange for voting “no.” These churches have money, you know, and they certainly know how to launder that money. How then to fight money with money in the 2014 Illinois state House races?

  • Less carrot. More stick.

    At least wise a stick is needed that is bigger than the one being wielded by this radical Christianist minority that’s seeking to impose its particular archaic beliefs on a secular state government and an entire state’s citizens, even the non-believers.

    For the Illinois state House Dems, it should begin with primary challenges.

  • I read about that counter-analysis at the time, and it didn’t read particularly credible to me. There’s an important point to make here, and it goes back to my “Outrage Inc” post of a few weeks ago: Exit polls, and arithmetic, are not “racist.” You may not believe the exit polls, you may not think they’re done well (and they have been wrong in the past at times, and other times they’ve been right). And you might even be right, if you present a good argument. But it’s important for us to know our electoral strengths and weaknesses, and exit polls are not “racist” simply because you don’t like the answer they give. And they’re not even racist if they’re wrong. They’d simply be wrong.

    I think we’d do better if we stopped trying to shut down conversations that makes us uncomfortable, such as this notion that the black community doesn’t struggle with homophobia. I don’t think it’s anti-Semitic to note that we do extremely well, with our various civil rights proposals, in the American Jewish community. And we do. And I don’t get offended when pollsters say that Democrats are having a problem with the gay vote. It’s either true or it’s not – but it’s not homophobic to run the numbers and see where the gays are on any particular candidate. It’s math. And not only do the candidates need to know if they’re doing poorly in our community, but if they are doing poorly, it often makes them try harder to woo us. And rather than being homophobic, that’s actually beneficial to our community.

    Oh, and you know who else was racist?

    “We have to launch a national campaign against homophobia in the black community,” said Coretta Scott King, widow of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., the slain civil rights leader. – Reuters, June 8, 2001.


  • He’ll gladly get out in front of a crowd to claim credit for leading that crowd wherever it was already going, but won’t actually bestir himself to do actual leading.

  • GlennF


    According to this NPR article, President Obama only spoke in favor of the Illinois Marriage Equality bill at a private fundraising dinner where no cameras or microphones were present to broadcast or record his remarks.

    “But in earlier remarks at a larger, more public fundraiser, where
    cameras and microphones were recording, the president didn’t mention the
    same-sex-marriage bill at all and made only a passing reference to gay

    It seems like if President Obama really wanted to help sway some votes in favor of the Illinois Marriage Equality bill, he could have been more publicly vocal in his support. But for some strange reason, he chose not to.

  • CJ

    Precisely. These people here aren’t going to help us anyway. Therefore, sacrifice the House temporarily to purge the Democratic caucus of the bigots that now occupy it. At least then as would likely see the end of Madigan’s career and the start of a new caucus that actually supports us.

  • FLL

    At worst, that may give the Republicans control of the Illinois House for two years, since their terms of office only last two years. If the result is a better crop of Democrats, it may very well be worth it.

  • CJ

    If enough of their seats are lost, Madigan is gone and likely out to retirement, allowing someone new to rise up as Democratic leader. But for a new crop to be made, the old one has to go. All Democratic candidates that did not support this should be targeted for removal and anyone living in their districts should vote Republican to dispose of them and get new Democratic candidates that actually support us nominated the next go-around.

  • Interesting point. How many Republicans do they think we’re going to find for legislation the black community wants? It’s a bad precedent, and unworthy.

  • FLL

    Agreed. People should pull out all the stops to see Michael Madigan bite the dust. He bears a large amount of the responsibility for today’s fiasco.

  • CJ

    I said it makes sense to vote against any that caused this to fail tonight; and to see Michael Madigan removed from power. That makes a whole h*ll of a lot of sense now.

  • FLL

    That would only be a valid argument for the two Republican members of the Illinois House who were counted as “yes” votes for marriage equality. Out of 119 Illinois House members, that’s over 55 Democrats who were counted as “yes” votes and two Republicans who were counted as “yes” votes. If your representative was one of the pro-equality Democrats, it seems foolish and against your own interests to vote against them. If they were one of the Democrats who were counted as “no” votes or undecided, by all means, vote against them.

  • CJ

    I will be voting Green Party in future. Or maybe I will vote Republican simply to see Michael Madigan ousted from power and as punishment to the bigoted Democrats in the House. They aren’t doing a good job of managing the state’s finances currently, and if they are not going to act on the thing nearest and dearest to me, I will vote Republican perhaps until a new crop of Democrats that actually supports marriage equality replaces the current ones. Not a single Democratic incumbent that held this up tonight should be reelected and we should do all in our power to get rid of them and replace them. Their political careers should be ended in the eyes of the gay community tonight. Michael Madigan only cares about his power and keeping his power, and he is clearly not going to help our cause. It’s past time for him to be put out to pasture, and the best way to do that is to vote to oust the current Democrats and only return to voting for the party when they give us candidates that will actually make this a reality. If we wanted Republican lite, why not just go full Republican? At least they don’t lie to us about their hatred of us and are up front and honest about it. Beats voting for someone who openly lies to your face and hates you behind your back the same as the Republicans anyhow.

  • FLL

    In Mexico, I think political involvement has been banned for churches since the Mexican Revolution of 1910-1920. And Mexico’s sodomy laws were eliminated… around 2003, like the U.S.?… No, I remember. Consenting sexual acts became legal in Mexico with the adoption of the Napoleonic Code… in 1871. And below, Eric Bohlman mentioned accurate figures concerning support for marriage equality by Illinois demographic groups:

    African-American: 60%
    White: 50% (due to the mostly-white population in central and southern Illinois)
    Hispanic (mostly Mexican-American): 70%

  • CJ

    Blacks should be 100% supportive of anyone being discriminated against, not just 50-60%. Gays did a lot to help them in the 60s and got stabbed in the back tonight. Blacks are traitors to the gay community and should be held accountable for their treachery. They abandoned gays once they got what they wanted, f***ing hypocrites.

  • CJ

    Ban churches from any political involvement as Mexico has done. They have no business in government and we are not a theocracy. Blacks are traitors to gays, after all gays did for them in the civil rights movement, they stabbed gays in the back tonight. Greg Harris is a liar and a fraud that led everyone on this whole time and got egg on his face for it. Michael Madigan needs to be removed from House control, as he clearly doesn’t have the balls for the job. This is a disgrace, and gays should forever black mark anyone involved in this travesty.

  • PeteWa

    agreed, the notion that it’s the fault of black voters in CA is a myth that dies hard for “some” reason.

  • Max_1

    Tax the Churches…
    … Or throw out the money changers.

    Caesar vs. God

  • Max_1


    In a Nation bound to the Principle of the Separation of Church and State…
    … Why has Religion become the deciding/influencing factor of State Laws?

  • FLL

    I was thinking about that myself… if there’s a money trail, that is to say, if politicians rely on Black ministers for campaign contributions. If that’s the case, fight money with money in 2014.

  • UncleBucky

    Agreed. And ones with (strangely) their hands in the pockets of the politicians. Hehehe.

  • UncleBucky

    Honestly, Phil, there’s a lot of cowards in the General Assembly, no matter what the “letter” (D,R, or L)

  • UncleBucky

    Black caucus my patoot. The Black “christianIST” caucus, more likely. We’re here in ILLINOIS. Meh.

  • FLL

    Your figures give an accurate picture of Illinois. I grew up in Chicago, and I well know that the major obstacle to social progress in the state comes from the mostly-white Downstate population in central and southern Illinois. The suggestion in my comment below was that the elected state legislators from the Black Caucus will experience a lot of fallout (and perhaps election defeats) in 2014, and they will have no one to blame but themselves for their defeats in the primaries or the general election.

  • Eric Bohlman

    It’s important to point out that the African-American community in Illinois is in general highly supportive of marriage equality (60%, compared to 50% for whites and 70% for Latinos); it is a small number of politically powerful ministers who are causing the obstruction.

  • FLL

    The quote from unnamed members of the Black Caucus of the Illinois house (which I’ve seen verified elsewhere on the Internet) sets a dangerous precedent:

    “Why don’t you get some Republicans?”

    I really don’t think members of the Illinois Black Caucus want to go there. The same blow-off attitude could be used in the future… against them. I could answer the Black Caucus’s question with another question:

    “If you’re so intent on stopping marriage equality, what’s stopping you from joining the social-conservative wing of the Republican Party? Ann Coulter can really be very charming if you give her a chance.”

    It seems that by putting a vote off until November, closer to the midterm elections (when chances of a marriage equality bill passing will be lower), many Illinois politicians are trying to dodge history. Do these fools understand how fast history is moving, and that they will be living in a very different country six months from now? Too little, too late.

  • Jim Olson

    Furious. Just furious. SO very tired of being a second class citizen. Really tired of the emotional roller coaster, and honestly, dreading the SCOTUS decision coming.

  • Johnnyjake

    Mr. Aravosis, you wrote “though some have tried to rewrite that history”. I’m confused by your throw away comment. Are you implying that the post-election analysis that DIS-credited the notion that black voters were significantly responsible for Prop 8 passing is faulty? If so, please revisit the numbers, we don’t need to relive that racist nonsense. If not well, in the words of Ms. Litella, never mind.

  • Phil

    I am ashamed of my home state.

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